John Stott

Dr. Alister Chapman who has studied John Stott for the last 10 years,  has published a book on Dr. John Stott:

Godly Ambition: John Stott and the Evangelical by Alister Chapman

Dr. Alister Chapman mentions briefly Stott’s position on hell on pg 145 of his book

“Stott also raised questions about whether hell would in fact involve the eternal, conscious torment of the lost – a staple of conservative evangelical preaching. Stott had struggled with this issue for some time. As a pastor he evaded the question, telling his congregation that he did not want to “be drawn into controversy about the exact nature of hell.” Now, however, he was as much a theologian as a pastor, and it was a theologian’s job to raise awkward questions, to stake out his ground, and take flack if necessary. Stott came in for heavy criticism after he published his view on the subject, and he lost credibility among American evangelicals in particular. He defended himself by saying that the true marks of an evangelical were a commitment to study the Bible and to submit to its authority not the tyranny of doctrinal traditions. However the criticism hurt him deeply, especially when it came from the mouth of that other tower of post-war Anglican evangelicalism, Jim Packer. Stott’s willingness to be candid about his questions about the nature of hell damaged his credentials as a evangelical stalwart. This made life harder for him with the theological conservative end of Lausanne. Yet the reality was that by the 1980s Stott was a different type of Christian from the one who first became preaching to students in the 1950s.”

Here is an interview with Dr. Alister Chapman. He does not mention Stott’s position on hell in the interview.

Around the Web January 2012

You might like to vote in this poll about hell ( follow the links) http://hellboundthemovie.com/?p=431

http://scottjhiggins.com/?p=826

asks

Really? Is it really true that God will “inflict wrath without any pity…he will have no compassion upon you…he will have no regard to your welfare… It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity: there will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery… you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance”? Is this hard biblical truth or terrible blasphemy?

Is this really what awaits the billions who die without faith in Christ?

The topic of hell is being discussed here http://mattdabbs.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/ten-questions-i-have-for-christian-universalists/

http://robinphillips.blogspot.com/2011/12/unquenchable-fire-part-1.html

Please leave other links that might be of interest to our readers in the comments.

Conditional Immortality Links from Around the Web December 2011

PLEASE NOTE:

The links do not necessarily reflect the views of this website, they are included for your interest. Please share any other links that might be of interest to our readers in the comment section.

My Top 5 Books On Hell from Christianity Today.

Conditional Immortality – What is it and How Does it Impact Religious Thought?

Contrary to modern evangelical thought, this view has been very popular with fundamental theologians through the years. Some of the l9th-century American theologians who held it are C.F. Hudson, W.R. Hunington, C.C. Baker, L.W. Bacon and Horace Bushnell. Central to this as a biblical argument is the belief that God was preventing man from choosing immortality in his sinful state when He drove man out of the Garden, away from the Tree of Life, so that he would not eat of it and live forever in his sins.

from earlier in the year ( only just now indexed by google ) Waiting for Rob Bell

My contention is this: the approach to this generation is not to denounce their questions, which often enough are rooted in a heightened sensitivity to divine justice and compassion, but to probe their questions from the inside and to probe thoughtful and biblically-responsible resolutions. We need to show that their questions about justice and God’s gracious love are not bad questions but good questions that deserve to be explored.

Not Whistling Dixie: Love Wins 3

A blog by another believer who has embraced conditional immortality :http://whatsoeverisright.blogspot.com/2011/11/i-would-love-to-be-universalist.html

Though I am not a Universalist, my reading and research in recent years have led me away from the traditional view of eternal-life-in-hell for the unsaved, to what is often called Conditional Immortality.

Do lost souls consciously suffer eternal torment in hellfire.

This past February 2011, some college classmates of mine from the 60s were having a good time arguing the physics of hell on our class email discussion listserv. Is Hell endothermic or exothermic? While some argued hell was endothermic, absorbing heat, as the only Christian in the discussion, I argued from Scripture, and what I recalled from physics, that hell was exothermic, oxidizing all that was thrown into the consuming fire, and giving off heat. Arguing that hell-fire was consuming, I was reminded of the annihilationist interpretation, and wrote about it to my classmates, who I suspect had never heard of that concept.”

Al Mohler stirs the Rob Bell pot some more

http://thecenterfortheologicalstudies.blogspot.com/2011/08/given-by-god-at-creation-immortality-as.html

In this post, I intend to respond to Fudge’s attack on traditionalists. While I have aimed to rebut the annihilationist view here, I also have a responsibility to respond to the attacks made by those with whom I disagree.

Hell and Mr. Fudge

Four Views on Hell Book Review
Christian History’s The History of Hell A Brief Survey and Resource Guide A Review

A Better Place

I overheard two men talking the other day, and caught the last bit of a conversation they were having.  I do not really know what they were talking about, but I can hazard a guess.  They concluded their talk with “she’s in a better place.”  My guess is that they were talking about a loved one who is now dead.  Perhaps they were consoling themselves with thoughts that their loved one was no longer suffering and in Jesus’ protection until his return.  But I wonder if those men knew what they were talking about.  Does the Bible describe death – even the death of a believer – as “a better place”?

The first recorded death in the Bible was that of Abel, who was killed by his brother, Cain.  The Bible states that “the LORD had regard for Abel.”1 Did that mean that Abel was taken up to heaven when he died? No, the Lord told Cain “the voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.”2  Abel did not go to a better place when he died.  He went to the ground where his brother had buried him.  That was the very reason that the Lord cursed the ground for Cain. He told him that “When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.”3 [Read more...]

  1. Genesis 4:4  ESV. []
  2. Genesis 4:10  ESV. []
  3. Genesis 4:12  ESV. []

A Christian’s Apology To Atheists

Republished with permission from  Doug Smith at EndlessHellEnded.com. Copyright 2011, all rights reserved. Please visit EndlessHellEnded.com for more information or to request a free copy of the e-book “Endless Hell Ended

Dear Unbelieving Friend,

I’m writing to apologize to you. My fellow Christians and I have misrepresented the Bible to you and shared a false message. In so doing, we have kept you from knowing the God who made you.

Our most serious failure is our traditional doctrine that after death, people who don’t follow Christ will suffer endless conscious torment in hell. Our message has been: “God loves you and sent His Son to die for your sins so you can live with him forever. However, if you don’t accept His gift, you will burn in hell for an endless eternity.” The endless hell part is not actually the Bible’s message. [Read more...]

Around the web 28th October 2011

http://www.maranadisciples.org/archives/1732 Audio : It’s a Hot Topic

From GRACEMAIL the following:

CONVERSATION WITH MATT DABBS — The September 30 issue of “Kingdom Living,” the blog of Matt Dabbs of St. Petersburg, Florida, includes a conversation between Matt and me {Edward Fudge}  about The Fire That Consumes. However, Matt’s inquiries focus less on outward content and more on personal and internal details — motives, reactions, expectations. I appreciate Matt’s hospitality in including this in his blog. Read it all here.

LECTURE POWERPOINT ONLINE — Now you can watch the slides to my September 24 Lanier Theological Library Lecture on “The Fire That Consumes” at no charge online. The 188-slide Power Point program is largely self-explanatory and is so detailed that it served as my teleprompter. To watch the slide program, click here, then use space bar or arrow key to advance slides. (For full-screen viewing, press F5 key. This is a read-only file.)

LECTURE ONLINE AND DVD READY- The video of my September 24 presentation titled “The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment,” the first in the Lanier Theological Library’s 2011-2012 school year Lecture series, can now be viewed on the Library website at   www.LanierTheologicalLibrary.org OR you can view it directly at  vimeo.com/30967402

Lecture with Edward Fudge from Lanier Theological Library on Vimeo.

You can also purchase a DVD of this lecture for only $5 (including shipping), a wonderful teaching tool for every serious Bible student, teacher, pastor, educator, church or high school and older class or group of any size. This is a wonderful gift to anyone who studies Scripture, or who does not but should, or church, group, library or just for yourself. For more details, email Amy Parker at amyparker@lanierlibrary.org

This understanding of Scripture is spreading rapidly among scholars and thoughful laypersons as well. It concludes that those who are finally lost will be raised to face God in judgment, then will be expelled to hell, the lake of fire and burning sulfur. There they truly die, perish and are destroyed entirely and forever in the second death. The destructive process includes whatever degrees of conscious pain that divine justice requires in each individual case.

This is “the view in the middle” between two extremes. At one end is universalism, and at the other end is unending conscious torment. We hold to conditionalism or annihilationism, not because it is the middle view, but because we believe it most consistent with Scripture. We object to the traditional view because we believe it NOT consistent with Scripture and also because (if we are correct in finding it unscriptural) it is a slander against the character of God who is holy and merciful and just.

This subject is not a salvation issue, and it is not a fellowship issue. What is needed is open-minded study and discussion by people of good will and honest hearts. May we, with God’s help, always fit that description.

Around the web October

A book review of one of the many books written in response to Rob Bell :  http://stevebishop.blogspot.com/2011/07/hell-rob-bell-and-what-happens-when.html

A book review of The History of Hell  http://bradkelly.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/christian-historys-the-history-of-hell-a-brief-survey-and-resource-guide-a-review/

from GracEmail by Edward Fudge:

Christian History publication has just published a special magazine issue titled “THE HISTORY OF HELL: A BRIEF SURVEY AND RESOURCE GUIDE.” The work is well planned, researched and produced, and it is substantial, balanced and clear. The magazine opens with boxed descriptions of the three most common views of hell among Christians, distinguishing the various elements of each view without greatly favoring or disfavoring any view.

Next comes a brief history of the doctrine of hell, beginning with the first generation of writers following the apostles (“the apostolic fathers”) and moving through the centuries with brief summaries related to important spokespersons. The second part of the magazine lists and briefly describes major books on the topic through the years, with emphasis on the present scene. This includes both The Fire That Consumes (unfortunately, not the new third edition) and Two Views of Hell. The writers say, concerning The Fire that Consumes: “Widely praised and influential book arguing that the traditional view of hell as eternal conscious torment is unbiblical; and defending the conditionalist view.” The description of Two Views of Hell likewise is worded fairly and neutrally.

It is a formidable job to produce a resource on a topic with such emotional content, a topic already defined by an enormous body of literature. It is even more difficult to do so accurately while working under a time deadline. Yet this is what the diligent folks at Christian History did. And, while the magazine issue is not perfect, we all owe its creators a major debt of gratitude. For a pdf file containing the entire magazine issue, click here.

Another Soul Sleep Wake Up Call from Atheolous

Any other interesting links? Please share them in a comment.

Waking a friend

One of the simplest descriptions of death given in all of Scripture comes from Jesus as he explains his plans to go to Bethany to raise Lazarus.  He tells his disciples “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him” (John 11:11).

Sleep is the most widely used metaphor for death in the Bible.

Some Christians talk about death using language that the Bible never uses, and Jesus never endorsed. Here are some examples.

the travel metaphor

Some talk about death as if the dead person (or his soul or spirit) has travelled to a far-away place. It is very comforting to think that a loved one has “gone to a better place.”  But is it Christian?  The Bible says that the better place is coming to us.  When Jesus returns, he will set up his eternal kingdom on this earth, redeemed, restored, and glorified.  The Christian hope is not going some place. The Christ hope is a coming someone: Jesus himself.

joined the angels

Usually, the person has traveled to heaven, and has joined the angels.  The Bible says that when Jesus returns, his angels will accompany him to earth, where they will assist in gathering the righteous dead for the resurrection harvest. Paul calls this time “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:7).  He does not mention humans making that return trip.

Some people actually talk about the deceased as if they have actually become angels.  This is absurd.  Angels are actually sent by God to minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). God has greater things in store for us than simply becoming angels.

joined the heavenly choir/ playing a harp

Some people think that dying makes a person become musical.  That would be nice. I cannot carry a tune in a bucket, and I can hardly play the radio.  It would really be nice to think that I was going to join some great worship jam session in heaven when I died.

Alas, the Bible shoots down that proposition as well. David said “For no one mentions your name in the realm of death, In Sheol who gives you thanks?”  (Psalm 6:5 NET).  He was asking a rhetorical question that called for a negative answer. No one gives God thanks in the realm of death (Hebrew Sheol).  David’s plea was for God to keep him alive so that he could continue to send up songs of praise.  The psalm would make no sense if David anticipated going to join a heavenly orchestra when he died.

Peter said of David “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day” (Acts 2:29 KJV). He knew where David was, and there was no music there.

The music will come when the Bridegroom returns for his wedding feast. But we do not have to wait to start sharing the music that is in our hearts. Believers are to be “addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,  giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ephesians 5:19-20). Death does not make us musical. Life does.

escape

Some view death as a release from the prison of the body to enjoy freedom forever.  Nothing captures this hope better than the famous epitaph of Solomon Pease:

“Under the sod and under the trees

Here Lies the body of Solomon Pease

The Pease are not here

There’s only the pod

The Pease shelled out and went to God.”1

Who would not want to believe that death brings release from the pain and sufferings of this life?  Yet, once again, the Bible places the terminus of rescue and escape not at death, but at the coming of Christ.  As tempting as it is to believe that death will bring rescue, the most that we can say biblically is that at death the suffering will end.  The rescue comes when the rescuer comes.  No one shells out of his body at death.

Even Jesus – when he died on the cross – went to the grave and stayed there until his resurrection.  He told Mary “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17).  Death did not bring escape for him.  It was his resurrection which enabled him to escape from death.  His resurrection guarantees ours.  His return will be our means of escape. Jesus promised that when he comes the dead will be in their tombs and will hear his voice and be raised to life again (John 5:28-29).

gone to their reward

Some people think that death is the gateway to the reward that Jesus promised those who are faithful to him.

Martha would disagree.  She stood next to the tomb of her brother, and refused to believe that he had been rewarded. She did not believe that he was anywhere but in that tomb.  Her theology was biblical. She told Jesus that she knew that her brother would rise again, and that it would happen on the last day (John 11:24).

Martha’s eschatology (doctrine of the last things) was spot-on.  Her Christology needed a little help.  She had said to Jesus “even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you” (John 11:22).

Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,  and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26).   Jesus was talking about that resurrection day that Martha had mentioned.  He said that on that day if any of his followers will have died, like Lazarus had, he will raise them back to life again.  Then (he said) on that day any of his followers who are still living will never die at all.  That is a great reward.  It is so much better than shelling out and leaving the pod!

Jesus does speak of believers being repaid for their acts of righteousness toward the poor.  He says that those who do acts of kindness toward those who cannot repay them will  be “repaid at the resurrection of the just”  (Luke 14:14).  That does not happen at death. It will happen when Jesus comes back to raise people from the dead.

Jesus came to the tomb of his friend that day to give us all a visual demonstration of the resurrection at the last day.  His friend had fallen asleep and he purposely waited until that happened.

Jesus shouted his friend’s name. “Lazarus, come out.”  He didn’t say “come down” because his friend had not gone anywhere.  He had simply fallen asleep.  The shout from Jesus is all it took to wake him.

Someday, you and I will fall asleep. Do not fear. All it will take is a shout from our friend, Jesus, to wake us up again.

  1. Sandra L. Bertman, Facing Death (London: Taylor & Francis, 1991), 29. []

THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL by Warren Prestidge

On 19 May I attended “Conversations Around Love Wins”, at Carey Baptist College. A panel of three debated matters raised by popular Christian communicator Rob Bell in his recent book, Love Wins, with contributions from the floor. I applaud Carey for hosting this timely discussion about very significant issues of Christian faith and practice.
One issue in particular was highlighted, both in the way the event was advertised and during the course of the evening: the issue of hell. Indeed, one contributor from the floor described the doctrine of hell as “the elephant in the living room”, which is rarely faced but which we cannot afford to leave unexamined! Apparently both Rob Bell and Carey agree!
So do I. Why so? We cannot proclaim Christ as Saviour, unless we talk about what it is He saves us from. The Bible and Christian tradition both talk about that in terms of “hell” (among many other things). Yet those interpretations of “hell” which predominate in Christian tradition are extremely difficult to square either with the Gospel itself, the Gospel of a God of love and justice, or with any human sense of right and wrong. The result is that, on the one hand most Christians are reluctant to speak much at all of final judgment, while on the other hand biblical Christian faith is totally discredited in the eyes of a great many unsaved.
The good news is, however, is that “hell” is not, in reality, what Christian tradition has made it. Surely, as Baptists, we are used to the fact that Christian tradition does sometimes get it wrong. After all, we have discovered that baptism is not for infants, as traditionally taught and practised, but for believers! Well, “hell” is not a place or state of everlasting suffering, whether physical or psychological or spiritual or all three. “Hell” is but one of many ways in which the Bible refers to the final fate of those who reject, or are rejected by, God. Most commonly the Bible refers to their fate, quite literally, as either “death” or “destruction”. “Hell” is another way of referring to the same reality: destruction,
As Baptists1 , we are surely familiar with the need to judge tradition in the light of Scripture. Our whole movement is based on this principle. So it is with “hell”. The truth about hell is not to be found in this or that ideology current in Jesus’ day. Actually there were almost as many views then as there are today and Jesus Himself taught us to beware of those who “make void the word of God” for the sake of tradition (Matthew 15:6). Nor is the truth about hell to be sought in the tradition of this or that church, let alone in the experiences of people who claim to have been granted visions of the hereafter. The matter is too important to settle by speculation or surmise. The truth about hell is to be sought in the Bible alone.
Actually it is Jesus Himself who speaks most often of “hell”. What does He say? In Matthew 25:46, He says that the rejected will “go away into eternal punishment”. Both final destruction and everlasting suffering are “eternal punishments” and so this statement does not settle what kind of punishment is involved. That question has already been settled by Jesus earlier. In Matthew 10:28 we read:
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The punishment of hell is not everlasting suffering, but destruction, a comprehensive destruction of the whole person, of the “soul” as well as the “body”.
The ancient Greek philosopher Plato taught that the “soul” cannot be destroyed and Christian tradition has largely followed him in that view. That sounds fine, until you realise that, logically, this means lost “souls” must suffer forever. Our Lord Jesus Christ has revealed the contrary. God can destroy us, totally! Therefore hell, thankfully, does not have to be a state or place of everlasting torment – and it isn’t. It is the means whereby, after judgment, God will put out of existence (“annihilate”) those who have rejected Him.
Actually the word “hell” is used in Scripture in only a handful of other places, all in the Gospels. In Mark 9:48, Jesus describes it as a place “where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”. Is this about everlasting suffering? Not at all. Jesus is merely quoting, and endorsing, Isaiah 66:24, and this text explicitly speaks of the destruction of “dead bodies”, not the torture of everlasting souls! The references to undying worms and unquenchable fire merely characterise this destruction as total and irreversible: worm and fire cannot be prevented from completing their work. Jesus does not add a single syllable beyond this Old Testament foundation. If only we would follow His example!
God’s judgment is death and destruction, not eternal torment. Our favourite Gospel texts tell us this! In John 3:16, the alternative to “eternal life” is to “perish”. In Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death”, not everlasting suffering. All through the Bible, from Genesis 2:15-16 to Revelation 21:6-8, the great alternatives are life and death. After all, only in and through God can we live. If we have finally rejected God, or God has rejected us, what is left but to perish? As I John 5:12 says:
Whoever has the Son has life;
whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
The judgment of God is dreadful, but it is just and it makes sense. It is, in fact, what we choose, when we choose against God: “All who hate me love death” (Proverbs 8:36).
I have presented a thorough biblical case for “annihilation” in my book, Life, Death and Destiny, available from Resurrection Publishing (email: respublishing@slingshot.co.nz) or from Amazon (Life, Death and Destiny by Warren Prestidge) or from www.lulu.com. Regrettably there is still a tendency to dismiss the case against eternal torment as biblically uninformed. My book shows otherwise. The freedom to read and interpret Scripture for oneself, within agreed evangelical limits, is another fundamental Baptist1 principle. I am perfectly willing to fellowship and work with people who continue to believe in eternal torment. However, by the same token, it really is high time to re-examine the traditionalist view thoroughly in the light of Scripture alone. At least Rob Bell, and Carey, have raised the issue once again. Thank you!
——–

Warren and his wife Jackie have been in church ministry since 1981. Before entering theological college Warren taught English at tertiary and secondary levels. He spent 14 years at a church on Auckland’s North Shore, which began as Forrest Hill Church of Christ and became Sunnynook Baptist Church! After 2 years as Director of Oro Bible College in the Philippines, he has been Pastor of Remuera Baptist Church, Auckland, since 1997. He has also lectured at Laidlaw College (formerly Bible College of NZ) in various theological and pastoral subjects, and is currently a board member of CIANZ. Jackie has taught Maths for many years. Jackie and Warren have three grown sons, all overseas at present.

  1. First published in NZ Baptist Vol 127 No.7 August 2011. Also available online
    www.baptist.org.nz/ []

the logic of conditionalism by Jefferson Vann

Conditionalist theologians believe that the Bible presents a complete and verified doctrine of human nature. We do not believe that God has left out pieces of the puzzle from the scripture that have to be supplied by pagan philosophy. Augustine believed that God gave him insight into human nature through the writings of Plato, but we reject that. We trust the Bible alone to explain who we are.

Thus we find it illogical to make faith-statements like this:

“I am eternal.
Not this flesh that your eyes can see
But the soul that lives inside of me;
Not this body that soon shall expire
But the sanctified soul that cannot die.
I am eternal.”1

Such statements sound spiritual and encouraging, until one dares to actually look into the Bible to find support for them. It is there that one comes face to face with an astonishing absence of proof for such an eternal soul.

One would expect that if God had endowed all humanity with an eternal immaterial essence, it would have been prominent in the creation account in Genesis. Here is what God says about our creation:

“The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”2

Our identity does consist of two parts: this “flesh that your eyes can see” and life from God. There is no indication from the text that the life is the person. The life animates the person. If the life goes back to God, the person returns to the soil. Death is not the separation of body and soul, but the separation of life from the person.

The man (Adam) was formed not from some spiritual substance in heaven, but from the soil of the earth. God animated that combination of soil-elements and the animated substance became “a living being” – literally, an alive soul.3 Before God animated him, he was already a soul, but was not yet alive.

The reason this is important to conditionalists is that we believe that life is not a right. It is a gift bestowed upon humanity by God’s grace, but conditional upon our proper use of the gift. If we abuse the awesome gift of life, God is not compelled to keep us alive for eternity. Life was a gift at creation, an opportunity to live forever, but that opportunity was soon lost.

That is why God warned Adam:

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”4

What God actually said was “dying, you shall die.”5 He gave a very accurate description of the human species — after the fall. We have become a dying species, and each individual who is part of the species shall eventually die.

Again, God does not insert any notion that this death sentence refers only to a part of us. He does not whisper to Adam “of course, this excludes your soul, because it cannot die.”

Whose idea was it that human beings are incapable of death? We first hear the words “You won’t die!” from that crafty serpent in the garden.6 Should we trust him to give us an accurate theology of human nature? Surely he has a lot to gain by convincing us that death is not real. But what do we gain by believing it?

Conditionalists believe that death is a reality for everyone was in Adam when God warned Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree. That includes Eve, since she was part of Adam at the time. That includes you and me, since we were still part of Adam as well. So, everyone, regardless of their spiritual condition will experience this death.

Just look around at all the cemeteries scattered throughout the planet. You will see that God’s threat was real. Death is a reality for all of us.

The good news of the gospel is not that Satan was right and God was lying. The good news is that God in his grace offers us hope beyond death: a resurrection of the whole person unto eternal life.

Jesus said: “an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”7

This resurrection to eternal life is the true hope of the believer, not going to heaven as a disembodied spirit. In fact, Jesus says that if he does not raise you from the dead, you will be lost!

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me–that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.”8

This would make no sense whatsoever if believers are already with Jesus in heaven for thousands of years before the resurrection. It is only logical if believers are in their graves awaiting a resurrection when Christ returns.

This also explains why the apostle Paul argued strenuously for a physical resurrection to the Corinthians. These Corinthians had been exposed to the pagan philosophical notion of the immortal soul. In explaining the gospel, Paul had to convince them that this notion was wrong. He had to show them that the resurrection is necessary.This is what Paul says to them:

“For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”9

Nowhere in Paul’s argument does he concede that death is not real. He argues for the absolute necessity of a resurrection. In fact, he says that if there is no resurrection, believing in Christ is futile. If there will be no resurrection, we are all still in our sins. If there will be no resurrection, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Why? Because those who die have fallen asleep. They are not alive somewhere up yonder or down there. They are not alive anywhere.

Jesus experienced that state of death – from Good Friday to Easter Sunday. Paul says that Christ was the first to be awakened from that sleep. The rest of us await his coming. It is then that we will be made alive again. Paul argues that until that takes place, our hope in Christ is only that. It is a hope. If Christ does not return to raise us, that hope will be in vain.

Plato’s philosophy of the innate immortality of the soul had permeated the western world. Surely all the Greeks in Corinth would have been aware of it. If Paul had agreed with Plato, this would have been a logical place to indicate it. Instead, Paul argues against the popular notion of a continued conscious existence at death. He argues that unless and until the resurrection takes place, the Christian hope of eternal life will not be fulfilled. The popular Christian teaching today borrows Plato’s notion of continued conscious existence and reads it into the Bible. The result is that the resurrection takes second place to “going to heaven when I die.” The biblical hope is never death, but always resurrection.

Jesus knew that each one of his disciples would go to that dark place of death and experience that sleep for millennia before his return. His message to them was not “you will come to me when you die” but “I will come again and take you to be with me.”10 He comforted them by assuring them of their resurrection and reunion with him at his return. Surely, if they were going to already be with him in heaven for thousands of years, that would have been the logical message to give them. Why would he omit that if it were the truth?

The popular theology of conscious existence at death teaches that people go to their reward or experience their punishment immediately after death. The Bible teaches that both reward and punishment will take place after Christ returns.

“For the Son of Man is going to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will reward each according to what he has done.”11

God has appointed a day in which every believer will receive the blessings of his faith and every unbeliever will receive the consequences of his unbelief. That day is not the day of our death but the day of Christ’s return. By following the pagan teaching of immediate rewards and punishment at death, we are in effect rejecting what the Bible says. We are choosing to believe what the world teaches instead of what God says in his word. Conditionalists believe that it makes a difference.

The logic of conditionalism says that God will not judge before the day in which he has set to judge: the judgment day.

“For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.”12

The parables Jesus taught his disciples that refer to his return indicate that his return is the time in which he will “settle accounts” with his followers and his enemies.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory…Then the King will say …take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ”13

“After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled his accounts with them.”14

If Jesus had intended to settle accounts with us at death, why would he mislead his disciples by teaching something different? Why would he allow these teachings to be placed in holy Scripture to further the misleading? Conditionalists see the teaching that people go to their reward or punishment at death as a clear misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says about how and when God will bring about justice.

Jesus also taught the disciples to be hospitable toward the poor, who will not have the means to repay them for their hospitality. He said that they would be repaid, not when they die and go to heaven, but “at the resurrection of the righteous.”15 Surely if believers go to their reward at death, then they would be repaid for their good deeds then. But the Bible says otherwise.

The consistent and systematic emphasis of the apostles also concurs that believers will be rewarded, not at death, but at the second coming:

“let us encourage one another– and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”16

“Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay”17

“Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.”18

“Look forward to the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world.”19

“So now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”20

“…that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.”21

Each of these apostles taught that the hope of the believer was the return of Jesus Christ, accompanied by the resurrection of all in their graves, the reward of those in Christ, and the punishment of those not in Christ.

If the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is correct, all of these apostles (James, Peter, John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews) were misinformed. They placed their hope in the coming of Christ when they should have placed it in the death of the believer.

But it gets worse. Even Jesus was apparently just as mistaken. He told believers “hold fast till I come” when he should have said “hold fast till you die.”22

It is the Bible’s teaching about the second coming that is at stake when one surrenders to the innate immortality theory. The Bible teaches that Christ’s return is the single most important event of all history. The doctrine that people’s spirits remain alive at death and begin eternity then subverts this truth. That doctrine makes the second coming practically unnecessary.

The logic of conditionalism returns the second coming to the forefront of Christian doctrine. It says that immortality is conditional. Only those who are given eternal life by Jesus when he returns will live for eternity. All others will suffer their appropriate punishment for their sins, and die forever.

The logic of conditionalism returns Jesus Christ to the center of Christian theology. Our hope is not in ourselves – in something intrinsic within our nature. Our hope is in our Lord. We await a Savior who will take away the death that we deserve and give us life by his grace. Our hope is not that we will get what’s coming to us when we die but that he will bring an inheritance we do not deserve when he comes. We wait on our Lord to fulfill his promise. We promise to hold fast ‘till he comes.

  1. Alfred T. Mitchell, “I Am” in Tome of the Universal Poet (Xlibris Corporation, 2010), 166. []
  2. Genesis 2:7 (NET) []
  3. Hebrew nephesh chayah []
  4. Genesis 2:17 (ESV) []
  5. a literal rendering of the Hebrew mot tamut []
  6. 6Genesis 3:4 (NLT) []
  7. John 5:28-29 (ESV) []
  8. John 6:39 (NET) []
  9. 1 Corinthians 15:16-23 (ESV) []
  10. John 14:3 (NET) []
  11. Matthew 16:27 (HCSB) []
  12. Acts 17:31 (NLT) []
  13. Matthew 25:31,34 (NIV) []
  14. Matthew 25:19 (NET) []
  15. Luke 14:14 (NIV) []
  16. Hebrews 10:25 (NIV) []
  17. Hebrews 10:35 (ESV) []
  18. James 5:7-8 (ESV) []
  19. 1 Peter 1:13 (NLT) []
  20. 1 John 2:28 (HCSB) []
  21. 1 Timothy 6:14 (NASB) []
  22. Revelation 2:25 (KJV) []

the waiting station

Solomon taught that “the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (Eccl. 9:5). For him, the intermediate state between death and resurrection was not a time to look forward to. Like all other biblical authors, he looked forward to the resurrection unto eternal life. He never denied the reality of death. Indeed, he taught that all people now living know that their death is coming. But after death, no one knows anything.

He taught that the intermediate state is universal. Everyone will experience it, and all will experience it the same: a state of unconscious survival. It is not non-existence. It merely is a state of existence where one is not conscious or aware of the passage of time and cannot know anything.

This was Solomon’s view, and he held that view with other Old Testament writers:

“Those who are wise must finally die, just like the foolish and senseless, leaving all their wealth behind” (Psalm 49:10 NLT).

Death happens to everyone, and no one can “take it with them.” It is a universal event that all will experience. Being wise will not keep you from experiencing death. The wise will join the foolish in that one place. The Hebrews called it Sheol.

It was the place of waiting on God. Sooner or later, we will all meet at that station and await the resurrection train to take us to our next destination. The station (Sheol) itself is not our destination.

“But he said, “My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he is the only one left. If harm should happen to him on the journey that you are to make, you would bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to Sheol”” (Genesis 42:38 ESV). [Read more...]

God is Different

1 Timothy 6:16 is one of the foundational verses for conditionalists.  In it, we see a theological principle that we are not ready to relinquish in favour of popular teachings.  It is the principle that God is the only being in the universe who has immortality.  His immortality is exclusive. In that respect, he is different from all other beings.

“The only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; no one has seen or can see Him, to Him be honour and eternal might. Amen” (HCSB).

The verse is the second part of a doxology: a pause to praise the God of whom the author is writing.  In its context, Paul is encouraging Timothy to keep pursuing eternal life to which he was called, but has not yet attained.  It is a promise from the only one capable of making that promise: God, who alone possesses that thing that Paul urges Timothy to pursue. [Read more...]

a podcast from Theopologetics Part 2

Episode 55: Eternal Fire.

Dr. Edward Fudge joins “Theopologetics” to discuss annihilation as an orthodox alternative to the traditional view of hell. This episode contains part 2 of the interview in which I present Edward with common traditionalist challenges to his view. Listen to episode 54, “Burn It Up,” in which we focus on Dr. Fudge’s book and the doctrine of annihilationism or conditional immortality.

a podcast from Theopologetics Part 1

Episode 54: Burn It Up.

Dr. Edward Fudge joins Theopologetics to discuss annihilation as an orthodox alternative to the traditional view of hell. This episode contains part 1 of the interview in which we focus on Dr. Fudge’s book and the doctrine of annihilationism or conditional immortality. Listen to episode 55, “Eternal Fire,” for part 2 in which Theopologetics present Edward with common traditionalist challenges to his view.

Paradise

Recently, my pastor and his family went on vacation, and he asked me and my family to house-sit their residence.  It was an interesting experience.  His house is much larger, and in a much nicer neighbourhood than any I have lived in.  When I went on my daily walks, I found myself contemplating the beauty and orderliness and spaciousness of the neighbourhood.  I was not exactly envious – God has taken care of me and mine; I have never had a reason to complain.  But I could not help but be struck by the extravagance of it all.

As I was musing over this one morning on one of my walks, I found myself praying to God.  He asked me to take a good look at all this wealth, blessing and provision.  Then he asked me to imagine myself (as he often does) a million years into the future.  Looking back on those few days in the pastor’s neighbourhood helps me to keep things in perspective.  It helps me to realize that my entire life is simply a short temporary stay in (as it were) a borrowed house.  What my Father has in store for me, when I get where he wants me, will be so magnificent that those few days among the well-off will seem like slumming. [Read more...]

Solving the Problem of Hell By Jefferson Vann


Our ancestors’ rebellion in Eden has changed humanity from what God originally intended. Because of that rebellion, humanity has inherited a sinful inclination that devastates all our attempts at being good and doing good things.  We are tainted with evil, depraved to the core. Legally, we stand condemned before God, so that even our obedience is never enough to justify us. We all sin in so many ways and so many times throughout our lives that destruction in Gehenna hell is almost the only solution for a just God to apply to the problem of us.

Hell

Every life so corrupted by the initial rebellion of Adam – so separated from God by its inherently selfish sinful inclination – deserves the punishment that God warns us of in the Bible. Unfortunately, there has been so much unbiblical tradition added to what the scripture says about that punishment that the term “hell” has ceased to be a helpful word to describe it. A better term – the one Jesus used – is Gehenna.  Unlike the hell of tradition, this hell does not begin at death, but begins on judgment day at the end of the age. Also, unlike the hell of tradition, this hell is not a place for the torment of disembodied spirits, but is the place for the punishment and destruction of the whole person – body and spirit.

Originally designating a valley near Jerusalem where garbage was burned, Gehenna for Jesus is a place where every sin – no matter how small it might seem – counts. It is an event and a place for the punishment of every act of violence. It is also a place for the punishment of every careless thought and word of violence. Jesus said “everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment … and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”1  The reality of hell should make us careful about how we express our emotions.

Gehenna will also punish all those who have followed false teachers, and willfully passed on their deceptions. This idea makes modern humanity a little less comfortable, because it implies that humans are held accountable for the lies they are told as well as the lies they tell. But Jesus clearly taught that the religious leaders of his day were going to Gehenna, and taking with them all of their converts. He called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, because they “travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, (they) make him twice as much a child of hell as (them) selves.”2  The reality of Gehenna should make us all wary of accepting any “new” doctrine. [Read more...]

  1. Matt. 5:22. []
  2. Matt. 23:15. []

Annihilationism and Apologetics by Matt Flannagan ( Part 2 Discussion Time)

Video recording of the 2011 Conference Talk Part 2 – Discussion Time

Speaker: Matt Flannagan
Topic: Annihilation and Apologetics
Dr Matthew Flannagan is a theologian with proficiency in contemporary philosophy. He holds a PhD in Theology from the University of Otago, a Masters (with First Class Honours) and a Bachelors in Philoso-phy from the University of Waikato; he also holds a postgraduate diploma in secondary teaching from Bethlehem Tertiary Institute. He is currently assisting with preaching at Takanini Church. He is able to communicate at a variety of levels and his presentation at the Confer-ence will be suitable for lay people. Part 1 The main conference address is here.

Annihilationism and Apologetics by Matt Flannagan

Video recording of the 2011 Conference Talk.

Speaker: Matt Flannagan
Topic: Annihilation and Apologetics
Dr Matthew Flannagan is a theologian with proficiency in contemporary philosophy. He holds a PhD in Theology from the University of Otago, a Masters (with First Class Honours) and a Bachelors in Philoso-phy from the University of Waikato; he also holds a post-graduate diploma in secondary teaching from Bethlehem Tertiary Institute. He is currently assisting with preaching at Takanini Church. He is able to communicate at a variety of levels and his presentation at the Confer-ence will be suitable for lay people. Part 2 The discussion time is here

HELL CONVERSATION CONTINUES

From gracEmail, the following blogs might be of interest to those following the hell debate.

http://purposenews.com/news/?p=5449

http://anglicansablaze.blogspot.com/2011/06/interview-scholar-edward-fudge-on.html

http://desposyni.blogspot.com/2011/06/edward-fudge-interview-christian-post.html

http://www.christianportal.com/2011/06/23/interview-scholar-edward-fudge-on-alternative-third-view-of-hell/

http://www.christianconversationsnow.com/2011/03/23/rob-bell-%E2%80%93-love-wins-6-edward-fudge/

http://claudemariottini.org/2011/06/26/the-biblical-doctrine-of-hell-another-view/

http://doctor.claudemariottini.com/2011/06/biblical-doctrine-of-hell.html

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/the-final-end-of-the-wicked-by-edward-fudge/

Around the Web in July

theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/hell-and-rob-bell/

The middle view, often called ‘conditional immortality’, seems to me to make most sense of the Biblical evidence. In particular, it recognises that Jesus spoke of ‘destruction’ (which implies an end), and that ‘eternal’ means ‘in the age to come’, not ‘unending’. It is more realistic than universalism and more compassionate than the traditional view.

http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/2011/tom-wright-wrong-about-soul-sleep/

Wrights work, not least in his book Surprised by Hope has really done a marvellous job of urging Christians to stop thinking of our hope in terms of heavenly bliss after we die, and to get back to the biblical message of the resurrection of the dead. This in itself, whether Wright intends it or not, will nudge people in the direction of being more open to the doctrine of soul sleep.

Please leave other links of interest in the comments~ed.