John Stott

Dr. Alister Chapman who has studied John Stott for the last 10 years,  has published a book on Dr. John Stott:

Godly Ambition: John Stott and the Evangelical by Alister Chapman

Dr. Alister Chapman mentions briefly Stott’s position on hell on pg 145 of his book

“Stott also raised questions about whether hell would in fact involve the eternal, conscious torment of the lost – a staple of conservative evangelical preaching. Stott had struggled with this issue for some time. As a pastor he evaded the question, telling his congregation that he did not want to “be drawn into controversy about the exact nature of hell.” Now, however, he was as much a theologian as a pastor, and it was a theologian’s job to raise awkward questions, to stake out his ground, and take flack if necessary. Stott came in for heavy criticism after he published his view on the subject, and he lost credibility among American evangelicals in particular. He defended himself by saying that the true marks of an evangelical were a commitment to study the Bible and to submit to its authority not the tyranny of doctrinal traditions. However the criticism hurt him deeply, especially when it came from the mouth of that other tower of post-war Anglican evangelicalism, Jim Packer. Stott’s willingness to be candid about his questions about the nature of hell damaged his credentials as a evangelical stalwart. This made life harder for him with the theological conservative end of Lausanne. Yet the reality was that by the 1980s Stott was a different type of Christian from the one who first became preaching to students in the 1950s.”

Here is an interview with Dr. Alister Chapman. He does not mention Stott’s position on hell in the interview.

A Christian’s Apology To Atheists

Republished with permission from  Doug Smith at EndlessHellEnded.com. Copyright 2011, all rights reserved. Please visit EndlessHellEnded.com for more information or to request a free copy of the e-book “Endless Hell Ended

Dear Unbelieving Friend,

I’m writing to apologize to you. My fellow Christians and I have misrepresented the Bible to you and shared a false message. In so doing, we have kept you from knowing the God who made you.

Our most serious failure is our traditional doctrine that after death, people who don’t follow Christ will suffer endless conscious torment in hell. Our message has been: “God loves you and sent His Son to die for your sins so you can live with him forever. However, if you don’t accept His gift, you will burn in hell for an endless eternity.” The endless hell part is not actually the Bible’s message. [Read more...]

THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL by Warren Prestidge

On 19 May I attended “Conversations Around Love Wins”, at Carey Baptist College. A panel of three debated matters raised by popular Christian communicator Rob Bell in his recent book, Love Wins, with contributions from the floor. I applaud Carey for hosting this timely discussion about very significant issues of Christian faith and practice.
One issue in particular was highlighted, both in the way the event was advertised and during the course of the evening: the issue of hell. Indeed, one contributor from the floor described the doctrine of hell as “the elephant in the living room”, which is rarely faced but which we cannot afford to leave unexamined! Apparently both Rob Bell and Carey agree!
So do I. Why so? We cannot proclaim Christ as Saviour, unless we talk about what it is He saves us from. The Bible and Christian tradition both talk about that in terms of “hell” (among many other things). Yet those interpretations of “hell” which predominate in Christian tradition are extremely difficult to square either with the Gospel itself, the Gospel of a God of love and justice, or with any human sense of right and wrong. The result is that, on the one hand most Christians are reluctant to speak much at all of final judgment, while on the other hand biblical Christian faith is totally discredited in the eyes of a great many unsaved.
The good news is, however, is that “hell” is not, in reality, what Christian tradition has made it. Surely, as Baptists, we are used to the fact that Christian tradition does sometimes get it wrong. After all, we have discovered that baptism is not for infants, as traditionally taught and practised, but for believers! Well, “hell” is not a place or state of everlasting suffering, whether physical or psychological or spiritual or all three. “Hell” is but one of many ways in which the Bible refers to the final fate of those who reject, or are rejected by, God. Most commonly the Bible refers to their fate, quite literally, as either “death” or “destruction”. “Hell” is another way of referring to the same reality: destruction,
As Baptists1 , we are surely familiar with the need to judge tradition in the light of Scripture. Our whole movement is based on this principle. So it is with “hell”. The truth about hell is not to be found in this or that ideology current in Jesus’ day. Actually there were almost as many views then as there are today and Jesus Himself taught us to beware of those who “make void the word of God” for the sake of tradition (Matthew 15:6). Nor is the truth about hell to be sought in the tradition of this or that church, let alone in the experiences of people who claim to have been granted visions of the hereafter. The matter is too important to settle by speculation or surmise. The truth about hell is to be sought in the Bible alone.
Actually it is Jesus Himself who speaks most often of “hell”. What does He say? In Matthew 25:46, He says that the rejected will “go away into eternal punishment”. Both final destruction and everlasting suffering are “eternal punishments” and so this statement does not settle what kind of punishment is involved. That question has already been settled by Jesus earlier. In Matthew 10:28 we read:
Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The punishment of hell is not everlasting suffering, but destruction, a comprehensive destruction of the whole person, of the “soul” as well as the “body”.
The ancient Greek philosopher Plato taught that the “soul” cannot be destroyed and Christian tradition has largely followed him in that view. That sounds fine, until you realise that, logically, this means lost “souls” must suffer forever. Our Lord Jesus Christ has revealed the contrary. God can destroy us, totally! Therefore hell, thankfully, does not have to be a state or place of everlasting torment – and it isn’t. It is the means whereby, after judgment, God will put out of existence (“annihilate”) those who have rejected Him.
Actually the word “hell” is used in Scripture in only a handful of other places, all in the Gospels. In Mark 9:48, Jesus describes it as a place “where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”. Is this about everlasting suffering? Not at all. Jesus is merely quoting, and endorsing, Isaiah 66:24, and this text explicitly speaks of the destruction of “dead bodies”, not the torture of everlasting souls! The references to undying worms and unquenchable fire merely characterise this destruction as total and irreversible: worm and fire cannot be prevented from completing their work. Jesus does not add a single syllable beyond this Old Testament foundation. If only we would follow His example!
God’s judgment is death and destruction, not eternal torment. Our favourite Gospel texts tell us this! In John 3:16, the alternative to “eternal life” is to “perish”. In Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death”, not everlasting suffering. All through the Bible, from Genesis 2:15-16 to Revelation 21:6-8, the great alternatives are life and death. After all, only in and through God can we live. If we have finally rejected God, or God has rejected us, what is left but to perish? As I John 5:12 says:
Whoever has the Son has life;
whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
The judgment of God is dreadful, but it is just and it makes sense. It is, in fact, what we choose, when we choose against God: “All who hate me love death” (Proverbs 8:36).
I have presented a thorough biblical case for “annihilation” in my book, Life, Death and Destiny, available from Resurrection Publishing (email: respublishing@slingshot.co.nz) or from Amazon (Life, Death and Destiny by Warren Prestidge) or from www.lulu.com. Regrettably there is still a tendency to dismiss the case against eternal torment as biblically uninformed. My book shows otherwise. The freedom to read and interpret Scripture for oneself, within agreed evangelical limits, is another fundamental Baptist1 principle. I am perfectly willing to fellowship and work with people who continue to believe in eternal torment. However, by the same token, it really is high time to re-examine the traditionalist view thoroughly in the light of Scripture alone. At least Rob Bell, and Carey, have raised the issue once again. Thank you!
——–

Warren and his wife Jackie have been in church ministry since 1981. Before entering theological college Warren taught English at tertiary and secondary levels. He spent 14 years at a church on Auckland’s North Shore, which began as Forrest Hill Church of Christ and became Sunnynook Baptist Church! After 2 years as Director of Oro Bible College in the Philippines, he has been Pastor of Remuera Baptist Church, Auckland, since 1997. He has also lectured at Laidlaw College (formerly Bible College of NZ) in various theological and pastoral subjects, and is currently a board member of CIANZ. Jackie has taught Maths for many years. Jackie and Warren have three grown sons, all overseas at present.

  1. First published in NZ Baptist Vol 127 No.7 August 2011. Also available online
    www.baptist.org.nz/ []

a podcast from Theopologetics Part 2

Episode 55: Eternal Fire.

Dr. Edward Fudge joins “Theopologetics” to discuss annihilation as an orthodox alternative to the traditional view of hell. This episode contains part 2 of the interview in which I present Edward with common traditionalist challenges to his view. Listen to episode 54, “Burn It Up,” in which we focus on Dr. Fudge’s book and the doctrine of annihilationism or conditional immortality.

a podcast from Theopologetics Part 1

Episode 54: Burn It Up.

Dr. Edward Fudge joins Theopologetics to discuss annihilation as an orthodox alternative to the traditional view of hell. This episode contains part 1 of the interview in which we focus on Dr. Fudge’s book and the doctrine of annihilationism or conditional immortality. Listen to episode 55, “Eternal Fire,” for part 2 in which Theopologetics present Edward with common traditionalist challenges to his view.

Solving the Problem of Hell By Jefferson Vann


Our ancestors’ rebellion in Eden has changed humanity from what God originally intended. Because of that rebellion, humanity has inherited a sinful inclination that devastates all our attempts at being good and doing good things.  We are tainted with evil, depraved to the core. Legally, we stand condemned before God, so that even our obedience is never enough to justify us. We all sin in so many ways and so many times throughout our lives that destruction in Gehenna hell is almost the only solution for a just God to apply to the problem of us.

Hell

Every life so corrupted by the initial rebellion of Adam – so separated from God by its inherently selfish sinful inclination – deserves the punishment that God warns us of in the Bible. Unfortunately, there has been so much unbiblical tradition added to what the scripture says about that punishment that the term “hell” has ceased to be a helpful word to describe it. A better term – the one Jesus used – is Gehenna.  Unlike the hell of tradition, this hell does not begin at death, but begins on judgment day at the end of the age. Also, unlike the hell of tradition, this hell is not a place for the torment of disembodied spirits, but is the place for the punishment and destruction of the whole person – body and spirit.

Originally designating a valley near Jerusalem where garbage was burned, Gehenna for Jesus is a place where every sin – no matter how small it might seem – counts. It is an event and a place for the punishment of every act of violence. It is also a place for the punishment of every careless thought and word of violence. Jesus said “everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment … and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.”1  The reality of hell should make us careful about how we express our emotions.

Gehenna will also punish all those who have followed false teachers, and willfully passed on their deceptions. This idea makes modern humanity a little less comfortable, because it implies that humans are held accountable for the lies they are told as well as the lies they tell. But Jesus clearly taught that the religious leaders of his day were going to Gehenna, and taking with them all of their converts. He called the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites, because they “travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, (they) make him twice as much a child of hell as (them) selves.”2  The reality of Gehenna should make us all wary of accepting any “new” doctrine. [Read more...]

  1. Matt. 5:22. []
  2. Matt. 23:15. []

Annihilationism and Apologetics by Matt Flannagan ( Part 2 Discussion Time)

Video recording of the 2011 Conference Talk Part 2 – Discussion Time

Speaker: Matt Flannagan
Topic: Annihilation and Apologetics
Dr Matthew Flannagan is a theologian with proficiency in contemporary philosophy. He holds a PhD in Theology from the University of Otago, a Masters (with First Class Honours) and a Bachelors in Philoso-phy from the University of Waikato; he also holds a postgraduate diploma in secondary teaching from Bethlehem Tertiary Institute. He is currently assisting with preaching at Takanini Church. He is able to communicate at a variety of levels and his presentation at the Confer-ence will be suitable for lay people. Part 1 The main conference address is here.

Annihilationism and Apologetics by Matt Flannagan

Video recording of the 2011 Conference Talk.

Speaker: Matt Flannagan
Topic: Annihilation and Apologetics
Dr Matthew Flannagan is a theologian with proficiency in contemporary philosophy. He holds a PhD in Theology from the University of Otago, a Masters (with First Class Honours) and a Bachelors in Philoso-phy from the University of Waikato; he also holds a post-graduate diploma in secondary teaching from Bethlehem Tertiary Institute. He is currently assisting with preaching at Takanini Church. He is able to communicate at a variety of levels and his presentation at the Confer-ence will be suitable for lay people. Part 2 The discussion time is here

Hell is Permanent

Travis Allen, director of Internet Ministry for Grace to You, recently posted an article entitled Is Hell Really Endless?Allen’s article defends the concept that final punishment by God is a process that will never end. Allen rejects the view he callsAnnihilationism, which is “a denial of the endlessness of hell.”1

Allen asserts that annihilationism “seems to be making a strong resurgence today among evangelicals.” That may be an overstatement, but it is a helpful correction to the assumption many have that the view only exists among the cults and theological liberals. Most of us who are labeled annihilationist2 argue from the same belief in an inerrant, infallible, authoritative scripture as Allen and John MacArthur do. We are solidly in the evangelical camp, and reject the concept of an endless hell on scriptural grounds. We appreciate it when that is admitted. [Read more...]

  1. All quotes not otherwise referenced are from Allen’s post. []
  2. This is not a term we often use or appreciate. The term most of us use is conditionalist, because we argue that human immortality is conditional. Since the unsaved will not be made immortal, they cannot exist forever in a burning hell. []

Hell: A Place of Silence, A State of Extinction

Thank you to Matthew Elton for permission to republish his article: Hell: A Place of Silence, A State of Extinction © 2011 Matthew Elton

It was first published on his website: www.faithfirstmedia.com
Please email  matt at faithfirstmedia.com  if you  have any questions about the article.

for printing or reading in a new window (pdf ) : Hell – A Place of Silence and Extinction Revision

or read it  at scribd :

www.scribd.com/fullscreen/57722552?access_key=key-1z41zapzf1uq2zo00tr

Hell Under Fire CIANZ Annual Conference Address Final Part —Warren Prestidge FDTL Iss 48

Part 1

continued from Part 2

A more serious weakness in the approach of contributors to Hell Under Fire is that they approach the Bible with this question is view: What does the Bible – the Old Testament, Jesus, Paul, the Book of Revelation – say about hell?  Now, that whole approach is very restrictive.  It simply excludes a heap of biblical evidence.  What they should be asking is: What does the Bible – the Old Testament and the New – say about the final fate of the lost?  Because that is the real issue and because, in fact, the idea of “hell” is only one of many ways in which the Bible talks about this subject.  But if you direct attention only to passages which relate recognisably to the idea of “hell”, and particularly to the very small set of such texts which appear, at first glance, to support eternal suffering, you acquire, and create, the impression that this is the normative biblical approach. [Read more...]

BELL’S HELL OR HELL’S BELLS?

Republished from GracEmail

The evangelical blogosphere is in atrial fibrillation over what Rob Bell might believe about hell (and say in his forthcoming new book). Theological lynch mobs are already forming, orthodoxy-police are observing, cooler heads are urging fairness, and many of the citizenry are scurrying for cover.

Bell is the controversial pastor of the 10,000-member Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, author of Velvet Elvis, Jesus Wants to Save Christians, Sex God, and other books, as well as the popular “Nooma” series of 24 teaching videos. Bell and his publisher baited the zealots by provocative press releases–and got just the reaction they probably sought.

This ungodly furor presents an ideal time for everyone to examine the CENTRIST (and biblical, we insist!) view of hell — right there between the unbiblical extremes of unending conscious torment on the one hand, and universalism on the other hand. For resources of all sorts on “the view in the middle,” the view that “sounds more like God,” the view that reads “the wages of sin is death” and doesn’t have to explain it away, click here .

Will you help me promote Bible study on this subject? Here are some things you can do:

1. Forward this email to everyone on your list who might be interested.

2. Post this link to your Facebook — www.EdwardFudge.com/written/fire.html

3. Respond to every blog on the subject, giving them the web address above as the place to learn about the view between the two extremes.

The revised and enlarged 3rd edition of The Fire That Consumes is due before mid-June, introduced with Foreword by Dr. Richard Bauckham of Cambridge, England, one of the world’s most highly-regarded biblical scholars. Professor Bauckham warmly commends The Fire That Consumes for dealing “so fully and thoroughly with all the relevant texts.” Besides updating the scholarship, this new edition maintains lively conversation with seventeen traditionalist authors who have published books since 1982.

The new edition will be released by Cascade Books, a division of Wipf and Stock reserved for books that “combine academic rigor with broad appeal and readability.” The Fire That Consumes is scheduled for release in time for the June 2011 Christian Scholars Conference at Pepperdine University, and is also in line for release by Kindle.

———

You also link to forward links to the resources on our website www.afterlife.co.nz or like our facebook page~ editor

Around the web March – Hell is Really Hot!

The subject of hell has hit the headlines this week because of the coming release of
Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived by Rob Bell
Here is his promotional video:

[ youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwfqBNICf4]

In Christianity Today www.christianitytoday.com/ct/article_print.html?id=91120

New York Times www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05bell.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Rob%20Bell&st=cse . I quote:

“Much of the book is a sometimes obscure discussion of the meaning of heaven and hell that tears away at the standard ideas. In his version, heaven is something that begins here on earth, in a life of goodness, and hell seems more a condition than an eternal fate — “the very real consequences we experience when we reject all the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us.”

While sliding close to what critics consider the heresy of “universalism” — that all humans will eventually be saved — he never uses the term”

I’m not sure if Rob is going to come down on the side of annihiliationism or universalism or any particular “side”. I’ll have to read the book. Someone who has wrote: www.gregboyd.org/blog/rob-bell-is-not-a-universalist-and-i-actually-read-love-wins/

“..given Rob’s poetic/artistic/non-dogmatic style, Love Wins cannot be easily filed into pre-established theological categories (viz. “universalism” vs “eternal conscious suffering” vs. “annihilationism,” etc.). I am certain some readers — especially those who position themselves as the final arbiters and guardians of evangelical truth — will try to do this (obviously, they already have!).  And, having read Rob’s book, I can almost guarantee you that they will find isolated quotes to justify their labels. As I interpret Rob’s work, however, it would be misguided and unfair to apply any of these labels to him..”

I think it is great that the topic is being brought into the open and people are discussing hell again. It’s time really thought about what they believe on this topic, whether it fits with what the Bible says and whether it fits with the God they know.

Rob Bell will be speaking live http://lovewins.eventbrite.com/ Monday, March 14, 2011 from 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM (ET) You can also participate live online. Use your Facebook account to join this provocative conversation by going to www.livestream.com/lovewins and login using Facebook Connect. {If I have my calculations correct that is 1pm Sunday March 13th?-ed}

Thank you to Edward Fudge for letting us know about the flurry of activity in the blogosphere and the media. Please see many resources on subject at his website

http://www.EdwardFudge.com/written/fire.html

as well as our own:

http://www.afterlife.co.nz/?s=annihilation

Pauline theology: or the Christian doctrine of future punishment, as taught in the Epistles of Paul by Horace Lorenzo Hastings

The entire book is available from google books. The book was republished by Dr. Dean as After the Verdict

Here is the beginning of chapter One:

Whatever knowledge we may be able to acquire concerning man’s past and present condition and however the sources whence we may have drawn our information, there is one and only one reliable source of intelligence concerning the future. Death bounds the of human vision; Death closes the expanse of human hope and human joy; Death has its secrets and reveal them to no one. We may wander in the old solitudes, and explore the secret places where his captives rest, but we shall seek in vain for any glimmering ray of which shall tell us of the track that former prisoners had been led or that shall give us any information concerning the yet untravelled path that lies before us and which we may at any moment be called to enter.

Infidelity with its “leap in the dark” gives us but the sorry consolation of a still denser gloom.  It hangs over the already impenetrable cloud that enshrouds the future destiny of man, another veil still darker. The cloud of ignorance can be dissipated by the light of knowledge; but what can pierce the veil of unbelief ?

Heathenism with its vague and various answer to our questions concerning futurity, shows its utter inability to afford us the slightest information upon which we may rest as upon a permanent foundation. Its mysteries, its absurdities, its groundless assertions, its foolish vagaries, its ridiculous puerility, and its sublime nonsense; all but make confusion worse confounded and darkness more palpably obscure.

It remains then for revelation to supply the need. God understands this matter.  Before his glance eternity unfolds its vast extent. In him is no darkness at all.  He can remove the obscurity. Will he do it ? How important the question! How it masses up and condenses into a single sentence, the world wide anxiety of six thousand years! And how eagerly a curious and interested world may await at the portals of the eternal temple the response of that Divine Oracle, which cannot err and which will not lie! Upon this answer hangs our all.  It may change the current of our lives.  It may cast a shadow over the remnant of our fleeting years, or it may pour the light of brilliant hope, even into the darkest recesses of the sorrowing heart.

“Burn On or Burn Up? A ready answer by the Holy Scriptures for Robert Whitefield…” by Andrew Patrick

Burn On or Burn Up? (pdf printable version )  Author: Andrew Patrick, January 2011

“Not only does God have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but why would he intentionally torture billions of people without an end, without any hope of redemption? Anyone who would wish such a fate upon others knows not the love of God. Any one who would beleive such a thing knows not the scripture.”

Download the artilce (update-1) or read it

Thank you to occupy-till-i-come.webs.com for permission to republish.

Burn On or Burn Up? by Andrew Patrick

Hell is a scary idea but God can rescue us: Jeff Vann on Nahum 1:1-8 (AUDIO)

An oracle concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum of Elkosh. 2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. 5 The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. 6 Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him. 7 The LORD is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; he knows those who take refuge in him. 8 But with an overflowing flood he will make a complete end of the adversaries, and will pursue his enemies into darkness. Nahum 1:1-8 ESV [Read more...]

Everlasting Punishment a quote from Rev. H Constable

Republished from page 186 of the Bible Standard May 1879

The following remarks, penned by the Rev. H. Constable, are worthy of attention :-
” There are some who tell us that the eternal deprivation of a blessed life is not an eternal punishment. They think the punishment is over the moment that the pains of the second death have ceased to be felt. What do such reasoners mean? Is the punishment of death inflicted here by human laws upon criminals over when the criminal is dead? No; it has then only begun. It lasts in all its force far every year, every day, every moment of that life of which it has deprived the criminal. Else that death which all legislature has esteemed the greatest punishment, and which same men think too great to be inflicted even far the greatest crimes, is of all punishments the shortest and least. But such is not man’s judgment of death. He esteems it, and justly, the greatest, the sorest, the most lasting punishment he can possibly inflict. He thinks so, utterly irrespective of anything he may believe, with or without reason, will happen after death. Death is thus esteemed whether it is inflicted upon the good man or the evil. Death is thus esteemed by those who believe that rewards and punishments commence with the separate soul, or who believe that Hades is a silent land of sleep and unconsciousness far all, good and bad alike. [Read more...]

Hell Under Fire CIANZ Annual Conference Address Part 2—Warren Prestidge FDTL Iss 47

Part 1

Part 3

Why is Universalism so commonly held today even among mainstream Christians? Or, if they don’t actually advocate Universalism, why do so many Christians today, including so many Christian pastors and teachers, pretty much avoid the whole subject of final judgment all together, even though it’s standard, both in the Bible and in all Christian traditions?

And the main reason, surely – or at least one of the two or three main reasons – is that even Christians today are utterly embarrassed by, and in fact ashamed of, the Traditionalist view of hell! And James Packer himself agrees with this. He says: “the deepest motivation in {Universalists’} minds has always been revolt against mainstream belief in endless punishment in hell for some people” (p171). In the first essay in the book, J. Albert Mohler Jr. traces something of the growing moral disquiet about this doctrine during the 19th Century. 1  He writes: “Of all the articles of accepted Christian orthodoxy that troubled the consciences of Victorian churchmen, none caused more anxiety than the everlasting punishment of the wicked.” [Read more...]

  1. “Modern Theology: the Disappearance of Hell”. []

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE by W. Laing. Republished from The Bible Standard May 1878 pg 59-60

( Also of interest might be Fire and Flood by Glenn Andrew Peoples)

Man as a descendant of Adam is uniformly spoken of in the Bible as a mortal being, and as a sinner doomed to perish, for the wages of sin is death. (Rom. vi. 23.) On the other hand immortality or deathlessness is always spoken of as belonging to God, or to such as on certain specified conditions He has declared His purpose to confer it. It is by overlooking this truth and assuming that the Bible teaches, that all men converted or unconverted are born into the world immortal beings, that such statements as the following are used to support the belief of the eternal existence of the wicked in misery! “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matt. iii. 12. “If thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Gehenna, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” Mark ix. 43.
The words “fire that never shall be quenched” in Mark ix. 43, are the same in the Greek as the unquenchable fire in Matt. iii. 12, and should have been similiarly rendered. Probably the reason for introducing the terms “never shall be quenched,” in translating Mark’s narrative was to render them more expressive of the idea of eternal torment, which the translators believed to be the final doom of impenitent sinners. Suppose however we use the rendering “unquenchable fire,” instead of “the fire that never shall be quenched,” it will still be thought by many expressive enough of the idea, that the unsaved shall be doomed to endure the most excruciating agonies throughout unending duration. If it could be demonstrated from the usage of the language, that the casting of a person into “unquenchable fire” necessarily implies the everlasting existence of that person, or that the words “unquenchable fire,” are in no other instance applied in Scripture to objects which we know do perish, then I confess we would be shut up to accept the doctrine of immortal misery, with all its weight of melancholy sadness unless it were elsewhere positively denied. If however on the other hand we find the same language applied to objects which we know have ceased to exist, then, surely we are bound to maintain in the absence of direct testimony to the immortality of impenitent men, that such language by no means expresses or implies the idea of unending being.
The phraseology which our Lord here employs was familiar to His auditors. From their childhood, we may presume they had frequented the synagogue on the Sabbath, where the Scriptures of the prophets were read in their hearing; and they must often have listened to these words of the Lord by the prophet Jeremiah, “If ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. Jer. xvii. 27. No sane man will assert that these palaces and gates of Jerusalem are indestructible, because the fire that destroyed them is termed “unquenchable”, so far from that being the case, the figure is justly understood to represent their complete destruction. Jehovah kindled the flames and none could extinguish them, they would continue- to burn till their purpose was completely effected. Destruction, not preservation, is the idea meant to be conveyed, and why not also the same idea when the doom of the wicked is represented by the same language? Why affirm that they are indestructible because Jesus said, they shall be “burnt up like chaff in unquenchable fire”? The meaning of the words “unquenchable fire” may be further illustrated by the use which Eusebius the ecclesiastical historian, makes of them in recording the death of those who suffered at the stake, for their adherence to the Christ. In his History, Book VI Ch.41., he gives an account of those who suffered at Alexandria, “the first of these was Julian, a man afflicted with the gout and neither able to walk nor stand, who with two others that came with him, were arraigned. Of these the one immediately denied, but the other named Chronium,
suruamed Eunius and the aged Julian himself, having confessed the Lord were carried on camels throughout the city -a very large one as you know-and in this elevation were scourged, and finally consumed in an immense fire,” (puri asbesto,) the same term rendered “unquenchable fire” Matt, iii, 12 After these Epimuchius and Alexander, who continued for ‘” long time in prison from the scourges and scrapers were also destroyed in an immense fire (puri asbestos). These faithful witnesses by being cast into “unquenchable fire” were reduced to ashes, not tormented for ever and ever, and when Jesus uses the same terms to describe the fate of the incorrigible sinner, how can these terms be fairly understood to mean anything else? The language of Jesus no more expresses the indestructibility of sinners than does that of Eusebius express the deathlessness of those who for the truth’s sake were consumed at the stake. “Unquenchable fire” then, means fire that irresistibly destroys that which is committed to its action. Had the Saviour’s words been properly attended to, they would never have been used as an argument for the doctrine we are combating. Would any one who had not previously believed such a doctrine, even imagine that when Jesus alluding to the end of the wicked, said “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” He taught His hearers that the wicked were unconsumable? Certainly not! It is the wicked who are like the chaff, and though the fire might never be quenched, in the most absolute literal sense the chaff would be consumed. Jesus positively asserts that it shall. The chaff He will burn up. What emblem more expressive of the complete destruction of the wicked? Dream not then, 0 impenitent sinner! that thou art an immortal. Unless thou yield thee to the love of God,and heartily believe the gospel of His Son, the Messiah, who loved thee and gave Himself for thee, perish thou must like chaff before quenchless flame. Ponder, I beseech thee, the love warning of Jesus. “God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Not less expressive of entire destruction is the Saviour’s language recorded by Mark, which has been already quoted. “It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to be cast into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.” The word here translated “hell” is in the Greek “Gehenna” or valley of Hinnom, a small valley at the southeast of Jerusalem. In this valley the idolatrous Israelites caused their children to pass through the fire to Moloch. After the captivity the place became an object of the greatest abhorrence on account of these abominations, and following the example of Josiah, 2 Kings xxiii. 10, they made it a receptacle for the filth of the city, the carcasses of animals and malefactors, and to prevent the deterious effects of the consequent putrefaction great fires were constantly kept burning; hence the valley was called Hennom’s valley of fire, or Gehenna of fire.” It was thus a noise some and hidious spot. Its lurid fires constantly burning and the loathsome worms feeding on the corpses, was indeed a fit and expressive picture of the most abhorrent and complete destruction. This view of the subject is confirmed by the closing sentences of Isaiah’s prophecy. Speaking of the future glory of the nation of Israel, and its capital Jerusalem, and the terrible overthrow of the opposing Gentiles, the prophet says, “Behold the Lord will come with fire, and with His chariots like a whirlwind to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire; for by fire and by His sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” chap. lxvi. 15.-16. “And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they.shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. v. 23 -24. Doubtless the scene here depicted is one of real carnage, yet the language, “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched,” is applied to the carcasses of dead men. Here we have a key to the language in Mark, which indeed is but a quotation from Isaiah, that would be familiar to the disciples of Jesus. So thinks Albert Barnes, though a believer in the immortality of the wicked. In his notes on
Mark ix. 44-46, he writes: ” This figure is clearly taken from Isaiah lxvi. 24. In describing the great prosperity of the kingdom of the Messiah, Isaiah says, that the people of God shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against God. Their enemies shall be overcome. They shall be slain. The people of God shall triumph. The figure is taken from the heaps of the dead, slain in battle, and the prophet says that the number of them shall be so great that their worm-the worm feeding on the dead-shall not die, shall live as long as there are carcasses to be devoured; and that the fire which was used to burn the bodies of the dead, shall continue long to burn, and shall not be extinguished till they are consumed.” “The word “their” in the phrase “their worm,” is used merely to keep up the image or figure. Dead bodies putrifying in the valley would be overrun with worms, while the fire would not be confined to them but spread to other objects, kindled by combustibles through all the valley.”
It is rather remarkable that this writer after such a correct exposition of the language, should affirm that the picture represents, dreadful and eternal sufferinqs. Putrid decaying carcasses, the image , of dreadful and eternal suffering! The worm luxuriating on a painless corpse, an image of the most painful anguish! The consumption of dead bodies in the devouring flame a symbol of deathless spirits, tormented by fire which pains but cannot kill them! Oh, the blinding effects of heathen philosophy on the minds of those who submit to its teaching!
The words of God in defiance of all the laws of rhetoric and common sense, must be made to sustain the baseless theories of human imagination, and thus poor mortals condemned to everlasting destruction inflate themselves with the vain conceit of their immortality, echoing with true filial earnestness and joy, the words of the old serpent, the Devil -” Ye shall not surely die.” – W. Laing.

Conditional Immortality Around the Web October

http://atheolous.blogspot.com/2010/10/correction-for-mr-camping-on-1st-thess.html

Lu 23:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Being with the thief in Paradise is not “remembering” him. Jesus was correcting the thief by letting him know that He was remembering him that very day.

The false teaching of souls in heaven started a very long time ago. When the entire Bible is studied for truth, there is no doubt whatsover that there is a punctuation flaw in our Bibles in Luke 23:42. How ridiculous to think that Jesus walked this earth before His ascension in just His bodily form. And if He was not only in bodily form when He was resurrected, then, like Lazarus before Him, His soul must have made a trip to heaven, back to earth and then back to heaven again.

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