Conditional Immortality | Afterlife | Conditional Immortality, Soul Sleep and Annihilationism

Around the Web January 2012

January 30, 2012 By admin 2 Comments

You might like to vote in this poll about hell ( follow the links) http://hellboundthemovie.com/?p=431

asks

Really? Is it really true that God will “inflict wrath without any pity…he will have no compassion upon you…he will have no regard to your welfare… It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity: there will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery… you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance”? Is this hard biblical truth or terrible blasphemy?

Is this really what awaits the billions who die without faith in Christ?

The topic of hell is being discussed here http://mattdabbs.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/ten-questions-i-have-for-christian-universalists/

http://robinphillips.blogspot.com/2011/12/unquenchable-fire-part-1.html

Please leave other links that might be of interest to our readers in the comments.

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Conditional Immortality Links from Around the Web December 2011

December 10, 2011 By admin 4 Comments

PLEASE NOTE:

The links do not necessarily reflect the views of this website, they are included for your interest. Please share any other links that might be of interest to our readers in the comment section.

My Top 5 Books On Hell from Christianity Today.

Conditional Immortality – What is it and How Does it Impact Religious Thought?

Contrary to modern evangelical thought, this view has been very popular with fundamental theologians through the years. Some of the l9th-century American theologians who held it are C.F. Hudson, W.R. Hunington, C.C. Baker, L.W. Bacon and Horace Bushnell. Central to this as a biblical argument is the belief that God was preventing man from choosing immortality in his sinful state when He drove man out of the Garden, away from the Tree of Life, so that he would not eat of it and live forever in his sins.

from earlier in the year ( only just now indexed by google ) Waiting for Rob Bell

My contention is this: the approach to this generation is not to denounce their questions, which often enough are rooted in a heightened sensitivity to divine justice and compassion, but to probe their questions from the inside and to probe thoughtful and biblically-responsible resolutions. We need to show that their questions about justice and God’s gracious love are not bad questions but good questions that deserve to be explored.

Not Whistling Dixie: Love Wins 3

A blog by another believer who has embraced conditional immortality :http://whatsoeverisright.blogspot.com/2011/11/i-would-love-to-be-universalist.html

Though I am not a Universalist, my reading and research in recent years have led me away from the traditional view of eternal-life-in-hell for the unsaved, to what is often called Conditional Immortality.

Do lost souls consciously suffer eternal torment in hellfire.

This past February 2011, some college classmates of mine from the 60s were having a good time arguing the physics of hell on our class email discussion listserv. Is Hell endothermic or exothermic? While some argued hell was endothermic, absorbing heat, as the only Christian in the discussion, I argued from Scripture, and what I recalled from physics, that hell was exothermic, oxidizing all that was thrown into the consuming fire, and giving off heat. Arguing that hell-fire was consuming, I was reminded of the annihilationist interpretation, and wrote about it to my classmates, who I suspect had never heard of that concept.”

Al Mohler stirs the Rob Bell pot some more

http://thecenterfortheologicalstudies.blogspot.com/2011/08/given-by-god-at-creation-immortality-as.html

In this post, I intend to respond to Fudge’s attack on traditionalists. While I have aimed to rebut the annihilationist view here, I also have a responsibility to respond to the attacks made by those with whom I disagree.

Hell and Mr. Fudge

Four Views on Hell Book Review
Christian History’s The History of Hell A Brief Survey and Resource Guide A Review

I overheard two men talking the other day, and caught the last bit of a conversation they were having. I do not really know what they were talking about, but I can hazard a guess. They concluded their talk with “she’s in a better place.” My guess is that they were talking about a loved one who is now dead. Perhaps they were consoling themselves with thoughts that their loved one was no longer suffering and in Jesus’ protection until his return. But I wonder if those men knew what they were talking about. Does the Bible describe death – even the death of a believer – as “a better place”?

The first recorded death in the Bible was that of Abel, who was killed by his brother, Cain. The Bible states that “the LORD had regard for Abel.”¹ Did that mean that Abel was taken up to heaven when he died? No, the Lord told Cain “the voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.”² Abel did not go to a better place when he died. He went to the ground where his brother had buried him. That was the very reason that the Lord cursed the ground for Cain. He told him that “When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.”³ [Read more...]

Genesis 4:4 ESV. [↩]
Genesis 4:10 ESV. [↩]
Genesis 4:12 ESV. [↩]

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Around the web 28th October 2011

October 29, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

http://www.maranadisciples.org/archives/1732 Audio : It’s a Hot Topic

From GRACEMAIL the following:

CONVERSATION WITH MATT DABBS — The September 30 issue of “Kingdom Living,” the blog of Matt Dabbs of St. Petersburg, Florida, includes a conversation between Matt and me {Edward Fudge} about The Fire That Consumes. However, Matt’s inquiries focus less on outward content and more on personal and internal details — motives, reactions, expectations. I appreciate Matt’s hospitality in including this in his blog. Read it all here.

LECTURE POWERPOINT ONLINE — Now you can watch the slides to my September 24 Lanier Theological Library Lecture on “The Fire That Consumes” at no charge online. The 188-slide Power Point program is largely self-explanatory and is so detailed that it served as my teleprompter. To watch the slide program, click here, then use space bar or arrow key to advance slides. (For full-screen viewing, press F5 key. This is a read-only file.)

LECTURE ONLINE AND DVD READY- The video of my September 24 presentation titled “The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment,” the first in the Lanier Theological Library’s 2011-2012 school year Lecture series, can now be viewed on the Library website at www.LanierTheologicalLibrary.org OR you can view it directly at vimeo.com/30967402

Lecture with Edward Fudge from Lanier Theological Library on Vimeo.

You can also purchase a DVD of this lecture for only $5 (including shipping), a wonderful teaching tool for every serious Bible student, teacher, pastor, educator, church or high school and older class or group of any size. This is a wonderful gift to anyone who studies Scripture, or who does not but should, or church, group, library or just for yourself. For more details, email Amy Parker at amyparker@lanierlibrary.org

This understanding of Scripture is spreading rapidly among scholars and thoughful laypersons as well. It concludes that those who are finally lost will be raised to face God in judgment, then will be expelled to hell, the lake of fire and burning sulfur. There they truly die, perish and are destroyed entirely and forever in the second death. The destructive process includes whatever degrees of conscious pain that divine justice requires in each individual case.

This is “the view in the middle” between two extremes. At one end is universalism, and at the other end is unending conscious torment. We hold to conditionalism or annihilationism, not because it is the middle view, but because we believe it most consistent with Scripture. We object to the traditional view because we believe it NOT consistent with Scripture and also because (if we are correct in finding it unscriptural) it is a slander against the character of God who is holy and merciful and just.

This subject is not a salvation issue, and it is not a fellowship issue. What is needed is open-minded study and discussion by people of good will and honest hearts. May we, with God’s help, always fit that description.

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Around the web October

October 19, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

A book review of one of the many books written in response to Rob Bell : http://stevebishop.blogspot.com/2011/07/hell-rob-bell-and-what-happens-when.html

A book review of The History of Hell http://bradkelly.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/christian-historys-the-history-of-hell-a-brief-survey-and-resource-guide-a-review/

from GracEmail by Edward Fudge:

Christian History publication has just published a special magazine issue titled “THE HISTORY OF HELL: A BRIEF SURVEY AND RESOURCE GUIDE.” The work is well planned, researched and produced, and it is substantial, balanced and clear. The magazine opens with boxed descriptions of the three most common views of hell among Christians, distinguishing the various elements of each view without greatly favoring or disfavoring any view.

Next comes a brief history of the doctrine of hell, beginning with the first generation of writers following the apostles (“the apostolic fathers”) and moving through the centuries with brief summaries related to important spokespersons. The second part of the magazine lists and briefly describes major books on the topic through the years, with emphasis on the present scene. This includes both The Fire That Consumes (unfortunately, not the new third edition) and Two Views of Hell. The writers say, concerning The Fire that Consumes: “Widely praised and influential book arguing that the traditional view of hell as eternal conscious torment is unbiblical; and defending the conditionalist view.” The description of Two Views of Hell likewise is worded fairly and neutrally.

It is a formidable job to produce a resource on a topic with such emotional content, a topic already defined by an enormous body of literature. It is even more difficult to do so accurately while working under a time deadline. Yet this is what the diligent folks at Christian History did. And, while the magazine issue is not perfect, we all owe its creators a major debt of gratitude. For a pdf file containing the entire magazine issue, click here.

Another Soul Sleep Wake Up Call from Atheolous

Any other interesting links? Please share them in a comment.

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Waking a friend

October 19, 2011 By admin 1 Comment

One of the simplest descriptions of death given in all of Scripture comes from Jesus as he explains his plans to go to Bethany to raise Lazarus. He tells his disciples “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him” (John 11:11).

Sleep is the most widely used metaphor for death in the Bible.

Some Christians talk about death using language that the Bible never uses, and Jesus never endorsed. Here are some examples.

the travel metaphor

Some talk about death as if the dead person (or his soul or spirit) has travelled to a far-away place. It is very comforting to think that a loved one has “gone to a better place.” But is it Christian? The Bible says that the better place is coming to us. When Jesus returns, he will set up his eternal kingdom on this earth, redeemed, restored, and glorified. The Christian hope is not going some place. The Christ hope is a coming someone: Jesus himself.

joined the angels

Usually, the person has traveled to heaven, and has joined the angels. The Bible says that when Jesus returns, his angels will accompany him to earth, where they will assist in gathering the righteous dead for the resurrection harvest. Paul calls this time “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:7). He does not mention humans making that return trip.

Some people actually talk about the deceased as if they have actually become angels. This is absurd. Angels are actually sent by God to minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). God has greater things in store for us than simply becoming angels.

joined the heavenly choir/ playing a harp

Some people think that dying makes a person become musical. That would be nice. I cannot carry a tune in a bucket, and I can hardly play the radio. It would really be nice to think that I was going to join some great worship jam session in heaven when I died.

Alas, the Bible shoots down that proposition as well. David said “For no one mentions your name in the realm of death, In Sheol who gives you thanks?” (Psalm 6:5 NET). He was asking a rhetorical question that called for a negative answer. No one gives God thanks in the realm of death (Hebrew Sheol). David’s plea was for God to keep him alive so that he could continue to send up songs of praise. The psalm would make no sense if David anticipated going to join a heavenly orchestra when he died.

Peter said of David “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day” (Acts 2:29 KJV). He knew where David was, and there was no music there.

The music will come when the Bridegroom returns for his wedding feast. But we do not have to wait to start sharing the music that is in our hearts. Believers are to be “addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ephesians 5:19-20). Death does not make us musical. Life does.

escape

Some view death as a release from the prison of the body to enjoy freedom forever. Nothing captures this hope better than the famous epitaph of Solomon Pease:

“Under the sod and under the trees

Here Lies the body of Solomon Pease

The Pease are not here

There’s only the pod

The Pease shelled out and went to God.”¹

Who would not want to believe that death brings release from the pain and sufferings of this life? Yet, once again, the Bible places the terminus of rescue and escape not at death, but at the coming of Christ. As tempting as it is to believe that death will bring rescue, the most that we can say biblically is that at death the suffering will end. The rescue comes when the rescuer comes. No one shells out of his body at death.

Even Jesus – when he died on the cross – went to the grave and stayed there until his resurrection. He told Mary “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17). Death did not bring escape for him. It was his resurrection which enabled him to escape from death. His resurrection guarantees ours. His return will be our means of escape. Jesus promised that when he comes the dead will be in their tombs and will hear his voice and be raised to life again (John 5:28-29).

gone to their reward

Some people think that death is the gateway to the reward that Jesus promised those who are faithful to him.

Martha would disagree. She stood next to the tomb of her brother, and refused to believe that he had been rewarded. She did not believe that he was anywhere but in that tomb. Her theology was biblical. She told Jesus that she knew that her brother would rise again, and that it would happen on the last day (John 11:24).

Martha’s eschatology (doctrine of the last things) was spot-on. Her Christology needed a little help. She had said to Jesus “even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you” (John 11:22).

Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). Jesus was talking about that resurrection day that Martha had mentioned. He said that on that day if any of his followers will have died, like Lazarus had, he will raise them back to life again. Then (he said) on that day any of his followers who are still living will never die at all. That is a great reward. It is so much better than shelling out and leaving the pod!

Jesus does speak of believers being repaid for their acts of righteousness toward the poor. He says that those who do acts of kindness toward those who cannot repay them will be “repaid at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). That does not happen at death. It will happen when Jesus comes back to raise people from the dead.

Jesus came to the tomb of his friend that day to give us all a visual demonstration of the resurrection at the last day. His friend had fallen asleep and he purposely waited until that happened.

Jesus shouted his friend’s name. “Lazarus, come out.” He didn’t say “come down” because his friend had not gone anywhere. He had simply fallen asleep. The shout from Jesus is all it took to wake him.

Someday, you and I will fall asleep. Do not fear. All it will take is a shout from our friend, Jesus, to wake us up again.

Sandra L. Bertman, Facing Death (London: Taylor & Francis, 1991), 29. [↩]

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the logic of conditionalism by Jefferson Vann

September 26, 2011 By admin 2 Comments

Conditionalist theologians believe that the Bible presents a complete and verified doctrine of human nature. We do not believe that God has left out pieces of the puzzle from the scripture that have to be supplied by pagan philosophy. Augustine believed that God gave him insight into human nature through the writings of Plato, but we reject that. We trust the Bible alone to explain who we are.

Thus we find it illogical to make faith-statements like this:

“I am eternal.
Not this flesh that your eyes can see
But the soul that lives inside of me;
Not this body that soon shall expire
But the sanctified soul that cannot die.
I am eternal.”¹

Such statements sound spiritual and encouraging, until one dares to actually look into the Bible to find support for them. It is there that one comes face to face with an astonishing absence of proof for such an eternal soul.

One would expect that if God had endowed all humanity with an eternal immaterial essence, it would have been prominent in the creation account in Genesis. Here is what God says about our creation:

“The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”²

Our identity does consist of two parts: this “flesh that your eyes can see” and life from God. There is no indication from the text that the life is the person. The life animates the person. If the life goes back to God, the person returns to the soil. Death is not the separation of body and soul, but the separation of life from the person.

The man (Adam) was formed not from some spiritual substance in heaven, but from the soil of the earth. God animated that combination of soil-elements and the animated substance became “a living being” – literally, an alive soul.³ Before God animated him, he was already a soul, but was not yet alive.

The reason this is important to conditionalists is that we believe that life is not a right. It is a gift bestowed upon humanity by God’s grace, but conditional upon our proper use of the gift. If we abuse the awesome gift of life, God is not compelled to keep us alive for eternity. Life was a gift at creation, an opportunity to live forever, but that opportunity was soon lost.

That is why God warned Adam:

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”⁴

What God actually said was “dying, you shall die.”⁵ He gave a very accurate description of the human species — after the fall. We have become a dying species, and each individual who is part of the species shall eventually die.

Again, God does not insert any notion that this death sentence refers only to a part of us. He does not whisper to Adam “of course, this excludes your soul, because it cannot die.”

Whose idea was it that human beings are incapable of death? We first hear the words “You won’t die!” from that crafty serpent in the garden.⁶ Should we trust him to give us an accurate theology of human nature? Surely he has a lot to gain by convincing us that death is not real. But what do we gain by believing it?

Conditionalists believe that death is a reality for everyone was in Adam when God warned Adam not to eat of the forbidden tree. That includes Eve, since she was part of Adam at the time. That includes you and me, since we were still part of Adam as well. So, everyone, regardless of their spiritual condition will experience this death.

Just look around at all the cemeteries scattered throughout the planet. You will see that God’s threat was real. Death is a reality for all of us.

The good news of the gospel is not that Satan was right and God was lying. The good news is that God in his grace offers us hope beyond death: a resurrection of the whole person unto eternal life.

Jesus said: “an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”⁷

This resurrection to eternal life is the true hope of the believer, not going to heaven as a disembodied spirit. In fact, Jesus says that if he does not raise you from the dead, you will be lost!

“Now this is the will of the one who sent me–that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day.”⁸

This would make no sense whatsoever if believers are already with Jesus in heaven for thousands of years before the resurrection. It is only logical if believers are in their graves awaiting a resurrection when Christ returns.

This also explains why the apostle Paul argued strenuously for a physical resurrection to the Corinthians. These Corinthians had been exposed to the pagan philosophical notion of the immortal soul. In explaining the gospel, Paul had to convince them that this notion was wrong. He had to show them that the resurrection is necessary.This is what Paul says to them:

“For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”⁹

Nowhere in Paul’s argument does he concede that death is not real. He argues for the absolute necessity of a resurrection. In fact, he says that if there is no resurrection, believing in Christ is futile. If there will be no resurrection, we are all still in our sins. If there will be no resurrection, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Why? Because those who die have fallen asleep. They are not alive somewhere up yonder or down there. They are not alive anywhere.

Jesus experienced that state of death – from Good Friday to Easter Sunday. Paul says that Christ was the first to be awakened from that sleep. The rest of us await his coming. It is then that we will be made alive again. Paul argues that until that takes place, our hope in Christ is only that. It is a hope. If Christ does not return to raise us, that hope will be in vain.

Plato’s philosophy of the innate immortality of the soul had permeated the western world. Surely all the Greeks in Corinth would have been aware of it. If Paul had agreed with Plato, this would have been a logical place to indicate it. Instead, Paul argues against the popular notion of a continued conscious existence at death. He argues that unless and until the resurrection takes place, the Christian hope of eternal life will not be fulfilled. The popular Christian teaching today borrows Plato’s notion of continued conscious existence and reads it into the Bible. The result is that the resurrection takes second place to “going to heaven when I die.” The biblical hope is never death, but always resurrection.

Jesus knew that each one of his disciples would go to that dark place of death and experience that sleep for millennia before his return. His message to them was not “you will come to me when you die” but “I will come again and take you to be with me.”¹⁰ He comforted them by assuring them of their resurrection and reunion with him at his return. Surely, if they were going to already be with him in heaven for thousands of years, that would have been the logical message to give them. Why would he omit that if it were the truth?

The popular theology of conscious existence at death teaches that people go to their reward or experience their punishment immediately after death. The Bible teaches that both reward and punishment will take place after Christ returns.

“For the Son of Man is going to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will reward each according to what he has done.”¹¹

God has appointed a day in which every believer will receive the blessings of his faith and every unbeliever will receive the consequences of his unbelief. That day is not the day of our death but the day of Christ’s return. By following the pagan teaching of immediate rewards and punishment at death, we are in effect rejecting what the Bible says. We are choosing to believe what the world teaches instead of what God says in his word. Conditionalists believe that it makes a difference.

The logic of conditionalism says that God will not judge before the day in which he has set to judge: the judgment day.

“For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.”¹²

The parables Jesus taught his disciples that refer to his return indicate that his return is the time in which he will “settle accounts” with his followers and his enemies.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory…Then the King will say …take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. ”¹³

“After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled his accounts with them.”¹⁴

If Jesus had intended to settle accounts with us at death, why would he mislead his disciples by teaching something different? Why would he allow these teachings to be placed in holy Scripture to further the misleading? Conditionalists see the teaching that people go to their reward or punishment at death as a clear misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says about how and when God will bring about justice.

Jesus also taught the disciples to be hospitable toward the poor, who will not have the means to repay them for their hospitality. He said that they would be repaid, not when they die and go to heaven, but “at the resurrection of the righteous.”¹⁵ Surely if believers go to their reward at death, then they would be repaid for their good deeds then. But the Bible says otherwise.

The consistent and systematic emphasis of the apostles also concurs that believers will be rewarded, not at death, but at the second coming:

“let us encourage one another– and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”¹⁶

“Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay”¹⁷

“Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.”¹⁸

“Look forward to the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world.”¹⁹

“So now, little children, remain in Him, so that when He appears we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”²⁰

“…that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.”²¹

Each of these apostles taught that the hope of the believer was the return of Jesus Christ, accompanied by the resurrection of all in their graves, the reward of those in Christ, and the punishment of those not in Christ.

If the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is correct, all of these apostles (James, Peter, John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews) were misinformed. They placed their hope in the coming of Christ when they should have placed it in the death of the believer.

But it gets worse. Even Jesus was apparently just as mistaken. He told believers “hold fast till I come” when he should have said “hold fast till you die.”²²

It is the Bible’s teaching about the second coming that is at stake when one surrenders to the innate immortality theory. The Bible teaches that Christ’s return is the single most important event of all history. The doctrine that people’s spirits remain alive at death and begin eternity then subverts this truth. That doctrine makes the second coming practically unnecessary.

The logic of conditionalism returns the second coming to the forefront of Christian doctrine. It says that immortality is conditional. Only those who are given eternal life by Jesus when he returns will live for eternity. All others will suffer their appropriate punishment for their sins, and die forever.

The logic of conditionalism returns Jesus Christ to the center of Christian theology. Our hope is not in ourselves – in something intrinsic within our nature. Our hope is in our Lord. We await a Savior who will take away the death that we deserve and give us life by his grace. Our hope is not that we will get what’s coming to us when we die but that he will bring an inheritance we do not deserve when he comes. We wait on our Lord to fulfill his promise. We promise to hold fast ‘till he comes.

Alfred T. Mitchell, “I Am” in Tome of the Universal Poet (Xlibris Corporation, 2010), 166. [↩]
Genesis 2:7 (NET) [↩]
Hebrew nephesh chayah [↩]
Genesis 2:17 (ESV) [↩]
a literal rendering of the Hebrew mot tamut [↩]
6Genesis 3:4 (NLT) [↩]
John 5:28-29 (ESV) [↩]
John 6:39 (NET) [↩]
1 Corinthians 15:16-23 (ESV) [↩]
John 14:3 (NET) [↩]
Matthew 16:27 (HCSB) [↩]
Acts 17:31 (NLT) [↩]
Matthew 25:31,34 (NIV) [↩]
Matthew 25:19 (NET) [↩]
Luke 14:14 (NIV) [↩]
Hebrews 10:25 (NIV) [↩]
Hebrews 10:35 (ESV) [↩]
James 5:7-8 (ESV) [↩]
1 Peter 1:13 (NLT) [↩]
1 John 2:28 (HCSB) [↩]
1 Timothy 6:14 (NASB) [↩]
Revelation 2:25 (KJV) [↩]

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the waiting station

September 23, 2011 By admin 2 Comments

Solomon taught that “the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing” (Eccl. 9:5). For him, the intermediate state between death and resurrection was not a time to look forward to. Like all other biblical authors, he looked forward to the resurrection unto eternal life. He never denied the reality of death. Indeed, he taught that all people now living know that their death is coming. But after death, no one knows anything.

He taught that the intermediate state is universal. Everyone will experience it, and all will experience it the same: a state of unconscious survival. It is not non-existence. It merely is a state of existence where one is not conscious or aware of the passage of time and cannot know anything.

This was Solomon’s view, and he held that view with other Old Testament writers:

“Those who are wise must finally die, just like the foolish and senseless, leaving all their wealth behind” (Psalm 49:10 NLT).

Death happens to everyone, and no one can “take it with them.” It is a universal event that all will experience. Being wise will not keep you from experiencing death. The wise will join the foolish in that one place. The Hebrews called it Sheol.

It was the place of waiting on God. Sooner or later, we will all meet at that station and await the resurrection train to take us to our next destination. The station (Sheol) itself is not our destination.

“But he said, “My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he is the only one left. If harm should happen to him on the journey that you are to make, you would bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to Sheol”” (Genesis 42:38 ESV). [Read more...]

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God is Different

September 14, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

1 Timothy 6:16 is one of the foundational verses for conditionalists. In it, we see a theological principle that we are not ready to relinquish in favour of popular teachings. It is the principle that God is the only being in the universe who has immortality. His immortality is exclusive. In that respect, he is different from all other beings.

“The only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; no one has seen or can see Him, to Him be honour and eternal might. Amen” (HCSB).

The verse is the second part of a doxology: a pause to praise the God of whom the author is writing. In its context, Paul is encouraging Timothy to keep pursuing eternal life to which he was called, but has not yet attained. It is a promise from the only one capable of making that promise: God, who alone possesses that thing that Paul urges Timothy to pursue. [Read more...]

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HELL CONVERSATION CONTINUES

July 16, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

From gracEmail, the following blogs might be of interest to those following the hell debate.

http://purposenews.com/news/?p=5449

http://anglicansablaze.blogspot.com/2011/06/interview-scholar-edward-fudge-on.html

http://desposyni.blogspot.com/2011/06/edward-fudge-interview-christian-post.html

http://www.christianportal.com/2011/06/23/interview-scholar-edward-fudge-on-alternative-third-view-of-hell/

http://www.christianconversationsnow.com/2011/03/23/rob-bell-%E2%80%93-love-wins-6-edward-fudge/

http://claudemariottini.org/2011/06/26/the-biblical-doctrine-of-hell-another-view/

http://doctor.claudemariottini.com/2011/06/biblical-doctrine-of-hell.html

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/the-final-end-of-the-wicked-by-edward-fudge/

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Around the Web in July

July 9, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/hell-and-rob-bell/

The middle view, often called ‘conditional immortality’, seems to me to make most sense of the Biblical evidence. In particular, it recognises that Jesus spoke of ‘destruction’ (which implies an end), and that ‘eternal’ means ‘in the age to come’, not ‘unending’. It is more realistic than universalism and more compassionate than the traditional view.

http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/2011/tom-wright-wrong-about-soul-sleep/

Wrights work, not least in his book Surprised by Hope has really done a marvellous job of urging Christians to stop thinking of our hope in terms of heavenly bliss after we die, and to get back to the biblical message of the resurrection of the dead. This in itself, whether Wright intends it or not, will nudge people in the direction of being more open to the doctrine of soul sleep.

Please leave other links of interest in the comments~ed.

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More on the Hell and Heaven debate sparked by Rob Bell’s book

July 9, 2011 By admin 1 Comment

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Watch the full episode. See more Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly.

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Around the Web May 2011

May 30, 2011 By admin 3 Comments

The topic of Hell is still hot on the blogsphere, ignited by Love Wins by Rob Bell;-) If you haven’t read it already, check out our review of the book: Bell’s Base Cards

Eternal Suffering or Eternal destruction

Whatever its appeal, the annihilationist position contains substantive problems. One is the biblical assertions that the wicked will suffer an “eternal” fate. Annihilationists argue that the word eternal refers to the permanence of the results of judgment and not to the duration of the act of punishment.

I am going to publish this excellent article : Hell Is-Permanent by Jefferson Vann in the next magazine. It address just the argument above. Well worth reading!

http://occupy-till-i-come.webs.com/ Scroll down the page to see the new content

More discussion on Love Wins

I, myself, studied this issue a few years back and also came to the conclusion that the conditional immortality view has more on its side than the other 2 popular views (eternal torment and universal reconciliation). As an aside, I prefer the term ‘conditional immortality’ over ‘annihiliationism’ specifically b/c I don’t agree with the Greek notion that souls are naturally immortal. Annihilationism, to me, sounds like God is putting an end to a life that would have otherwise lived forever. I think, rather, that death is simply the natural result of sin-filled life. We only have eternal life in the Son.

cited from http://thebestofbelief.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/the-fury-of-rob-bell%E2%80%99s-hell-in-%E2%80%98love-wins%E2%80%99/

http://learntheology.com/hell_forever.html A discussion on Hell. It’s conclusion

The idea of the wicked being obliterated rather than suffering endlessly will continue to appeal to sensitive Christians. Yet emotion cannot be the primary consideration in settling theological issues. In this case the biblical and theological data weigh strongly on the side of eternal conscious punishment of the wicked.

We would disagree! For example the author states

However, how there can be smoke without something being burned? If these bodies are burned up, consumed, destroyed, how can there still be smoke? What would produce smoke, unless something was burning? For that matter, why would the lake of fire continue to exist, with nothing left to burn?

The image of rising smoke is another common Old Testament symbol of destruction used, for example, to describe the total destruction of Edom, (Isa. 34:10).

Isaiah 34:10 “It will burn day and night, and smoke will rise from it forever. The land will lie waste age after age, and no one will ever travel through it again.”

from A Short Note on Revelation 14:9-11

Evangelical Annihilationism in Reveiw by J I Packer republished from Reformation & Revival magazine, Volume 6, Number 2 - Spring 1997.

http://conditionalist.blogspot.com/2011/05/biblical-doctrine-of-conditional.html

http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2011/05/soul-man.html the comments on this post might be of interest.

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/john-w-wenham-quote-on-conditional-immortality/

Any other links of interest please leave them in the comments

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Sleeping In the Dust By Jonathan Burke

April 19, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

A Review by Jefferson Vann

Jonathan Burke sets a high standard for himself in his recent book, Sleeping in the Dust. Burke is a Christadelphian. He writes from the standpoint of a conditionalist, and argues that the view that human beings are born naturally immortal has always had its dissenters among the ranks of Bible believing Christians. He also fairly expresses the various forms of conditionalist thinking in the past and present. His work can serve as a valuable resource for believers in conditional immortality. His historical references and quotes show that the debate about the intermediate state and final punishment is not a new thing. He also shows the relevance of this historical debate by identifying how modern writers and writings are contributing to the issue.

Readers not familiar with the academic structure of Sleeping in the Dust may find it a bit hard to read. He writes in a comprehensive no stones unturned manner that can be overwhelming. Nevertheless, the effort in reading such a work is well expended. The book provides valuable input for those who are interested in biblical answers to questions about death and destiny. Thank you, Jonathan Burke.

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Around the web April 2011

April 18, 2011 By admin 3 Comments

Many links this time; Rob bells’ book Love Wins have heated up the hell debate!

Please note that not all links express the views of this website but are given for your interest. Any other links of interest please leave them in the comments for our interest.

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/

I just found the above site, well worth a read

“This blog is not intended to endorse or promote any particular theological position on the subject of Hell. We would like for you to engage in prayerfully considering the topic as you engage scripture, logic, and your fellow brothers and sisters over this topic. This blog is intended to serve as a landing place for whoever is interested in further engaging the conversation we started on the nature of Hell in Christian Theology. We hope it will provide some resources for you to further investigate what you believe and why you believe it.”

so you will find a variety of view on the site. Here is the link to the pro-annihilationist view articles:

http://ekklesiahellweek.wordpress.com/category/annihilationist-view-of-hell/pro-annihilationist-view-of-hell/

“Feel my faith” is having a look at the topic of hell : http://www.feelmyfaith.com/2011/04/four-views-of-hell.html

http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/ What the hell is Hell? comes to Christian Universalism conclusions and rejects annihilationism and links to this article http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

but we have lots of common ground in rejecting the traditional view of hell and the site is well worth a read. Here is a quote

After spending several years in many different denominations of Christianity, spending thousands of hours comparing and studying various translations of the Bible, looking into the Greek and Hebrew behind our English translations, studying the writings of the early Church Fathers, and seeking God in prayer with all that is in me, I am one hundred percent convinced there is NO such thing as a Hell of everlasting tortures as taught in most denominations of Christianity.

http://eikondenver.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/understanding-the-rob-bell-debate/ more on the Rob Bell debate

a quick summary http://www.joeandheidiwhite.com/2011/04/four-views-on-hell-part-44-conditional.html . I’m excited that bloggers are looking at the 4 views.

http://hellreexamined.wordpress.com/ an online book on the topic of hell

http://hellreexamined.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/too-hot-to-handle/ I had no idea that ” the preaching of Jonathan Edwards resulted in suicides by certain persons who were so terrified by this deliberate misuse of the Christian sacred texts.” He linked to Edward’s Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God: http://youtu.be/9fgHLtrDu7w

http://3-ringbinder.blogspot.com/2011/04/implications-of-conditional-immortality.html here is the article the author refers to

:http://3-ringbinder.weebly.com/uploads/1/9/1/0/1910989/the_bible_teaches_annihilationism.pdf

http://www.apologetics.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=160968#Post160968

http://wheatamongtares.blogspot.com/2011/03/afterlife.html

Why Anihilationism is not universalism http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/03/18/mt-10-28-why-anihilationism-is-not-universalism/

Is anihilationism then any sort of form of universalism? No, it is not. Let us return to the battle field imagery. My father fought in WWII for George Patton’s army and he saw many destroyed villages at the end of the war in Germany and Czechoslovakia, destroyed by Allied bombers. When he walked into a village and found a few survivors, a few who had been saved through and despite the malestrom, while the vast majority had been destroyed, he could never have said—- “well they all ended up being saved”. Of course not. The last persons standing were saved, and none of the last persons standing were destroyed, but this is hardly any form of universalism at all.

Links to some audio files : “Views of Hell” from Steve Gregg

who is becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the traditional view of hell

My most recent theological shift seems to be concerning the nature and purpose of “hell.” As long ago as the late eighties, I became aware that two of my most-admired evangelical leaders, John R.W. Stott and Clark Pinnock, had taken the surprising position that hell is a place of annihilation, not eternal torment. I could not immediately accept this (being fundamentally conservative by temperament), but it lodged in my mind. Somewhere along the way, I also heard that certain evangelical Christians, like Hannah Whitall Smith and George MacDonald, were Christian Universalists. This bothered me, somewhat, but I had become much more open-minded to letting others reach their own conclusions, by now, and was not as greatly alarmed as I would have been a decade earlier.

It still seemed to me, however, that the safest position to take is the traditional view of a hell of eternal torment (might as well prepare people for the worst possibility!). I found it fairly easy to remain dispassionate on the subject while presenting all three options to callers on my radio program, but I still felt that the evidence for the three views was about equally distributed, allowing me to retain my default position (the traditional view) in good conscience. In the last few years, however, I have become less and less impressed with the nature of the biblical evidence for the traditional view, and more concerned about its implications with reference to the character of God. Today, I have been thoroughly moved from my former confidence in the view of endless torment. I am currently in the process of deciding between the two options—both of which seem to be superior, in terms of biblical evidence, to the traditional view, though neither provides a thorough refutation of the other.

Some would, no doubt, conclude (on the basis of all of these confessed changes in my theology) that I am theologically unstable, “tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.” Actually, since the mid-seventies, there has been no “to and fro-ness” about it. I have not gone back-and-forth in my beliefs. Rather, each change I have made has been precipitated by the previous ones, and has been a necessary advance prodded-on by those that lie behind. Personally, of course, I regard the sum of these shifts as “progress.” I do not expect all who read this to agree with me in this assessment.

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victory through resurrection

April 17, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

Devotional Thoughts from 1 Corinthians 15.

Republished from marmsky.wordpress.com with permission

It is clear from what Paul says in this chapter that some in the Corinthian churches were trying to downplay the doctrine of the resurrection. Paul encourages the Corinthians to continue to preach it, because the victory that the believer has is the resurrection. If you take away the resurrection, Christianity is an empty religion with no real hope, and believers are “of all people most to be pitied” (19). The reason is that all human beings are born mortal. We have a death sentence hanging over us because of Adam’s rebellion. We imitate Adam by being creatures who return to the dust. But the resurrection gives us an opportunity to imitate Christ, the man from heaven (48). This will happen at the last trumpet, when Christ returns (52-53). The resurrection is our victory.

LORD, give us the courage and the wisdom to keep preaching the resurrection.

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from temporary to permanent

April 16, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

Devotional Thoughts from 2 Corinthians 4:1-5:10.

Republished from marmsky.wordpress.com with permission

The context of Paul’s earthly tent passage is Paul’s jars of clay passage. He is defending his speaking ministry by saying that he speaks by faith, “knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence” (4:14). His faith is not in a conscious intermediate state, but in the resurrection from the dead. He does not want to be found naked (the intermediate state) but to be clothed with immortal life at the resurrection (5:4). Since he has this hope, he is able to face tribulation and death confidently, knowing that anything he faces in this life is but a “light momentary affliction” (4:17). His hope is in a permanent “building from God” (5:1).

LORD, we put our faith in you, and confidently expect you to bring us out of this temporary state and into a permanent one.

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Moses on the souls of animals by Jefferson Vann FDTL 48

April 1, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

Long before Plato ever said anything about the human soul, the Old Testament writers presented a consistent biblical anthropology. Augustine was biased toward platonic philosophy, even going so far as to claim that Plato brought him to God.¹ But there is no reason for us today to be biased toward Plato’s (or anyone else’s) philosophy. We should first seek to understand what God himself has revealed about humanity before inquiring of any human speculation.

The Hebrew word Moses used that our English bibles sometimes translate soul is nephesh, a word that suggests something that breathes. In fact, the Ugaritic and Akadian cognates also mean “throat.”² Moses’ use was consistent with an understanding that a soul is a living breathing being. [Read more...]

B. F. Cocker, Christianity and Greek Philosophy (New York: Carlton & Lanahan, 1870), 10. [↩]
See The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 1935a Nephesh. [↩]

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Bell’s Base Cards

March 26, 2011 By admin 6 Comments

Rob Bell does a masterful job of shaking the foundations of the modern theology of human destiny in his new book entitled Love Wins.¹ He exposes the fact that much of what people say about salvation and human destiny is not based on the Bible, therefore does not hold up to the scrutiny of direct questioning. He dares to ask direct questions – many of them.

His tactic is similar to that of knocking down base cards in someone’s house of cards. A house of cards can be an enormous thing, but it is only as strong as the first few cards one lays out. Those base cards serve as the foundation. If they are stable, one can build fortresses out of flimsy cards upon them. But topple those base cards and the entire thing falls apart. Bell’s identified some flimsy base cards in modern theology: the idea that only professing believers will go to heaven and its corollary that all others will suffer in hell forever.

He attacked those familiar base cards by appealing to scripture after scripture to show that the Bible addresses very different issues. He wanted to show that the whole of modern theology about human destiny was built upon assumptions that do not come from the Bible. He accomplished that mission. Each chapter in the book identifies a presupposition, and then proceeds to topple it by going to the text of scripture and comparing the presupposition to what scripture actually says. In short, Bell does theology and he does it well.

Nevertheless, Bell’s book is destined to be much maligned. He has taken on subjects which are practically taboo for evangelical Christians. “Heaven when you die” and “conscious eternal suffering for the lost” are concepts that are too holy for most good church people to investigate. Expect Bell to be branded a hopeless Universalist. Expect retaliation. Expect The DaVinci Code all over again.

…And rightfully so. Any good theologian worth his or her salt makes a difference. Bell has swung a pendulum, and one should expect the thing to swing back in the other direction. Paul told the Corinthians that “there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.”² Bad theology can mobilize good theology.

With that in mind, let me tell you where I think Bell has it wrong. He spends numerous pages showing that the gospel message is not about going to heaven when you die – then he puts the saved in heaven when they die. He can do no other, because for Bell (and most of his opponents) the human soul has to live eternally somewhere. Bell sweeps away all of the scriptural evidence that he has amassed against the concept that heaven is a destination. In the end, he says what he has been arguing against.

He agrees with his opponents that all human beings are immortal, except that, unlike them, he argues that their immortality gives human beings hope for restoration to God even after their bodies die. He argues from scripture that God is love and therefore never gives up on his own. So, as long as there is life, there is hope. He argues for the concept of future probation on the basis of two premises: God never stops loving, and human beings never stop living.

Herein is the problem: none of Bell’s opponents want to deny either of those premises. They believe that God is both loving and just. They want to agree with what the Bible says about his love, but not forget that it gives equal time to his wrath. When they talk about Judgment Day, they envision that it will be just that – a day in which God will judge humanity, and determine the eternal fate of everyone. They cannot envision a Judgment Day that extends to however many years and centuries needed to purge humanity of all sin and rescue all. Hence, they must believe that death seals the fate of all.

The all important doctrine that Bell and most of his opponents agree upon is the concept of innate immortality: that all humans are born immortal. That doctrine will lead Bell’s opponents to insist on eternal conscious suffering in hell for the lost. It leads Bell to insist that a loving God would never condemn people to such a fate for a limited life of sin; therefore he must give opportunity for restoration.

Allow me then – in Rob Bell fashion – to suggest that it is that presupposition that keeps both Bell and his opponents from seeing what the Bible says about the destiny of the lost. The Bible says that only God is immortal.³ Immortality is a promise from God that Christ will give to the saved – it is not an innate characteristic of every human.⁴ For anybody to live anywhere forever, they must have eternal life. Eternal life is promised to the saved only.⁵

What, then, is the destiny of the lost? The God of justice who gave us his truth in his word has decreed that the lost will be destroyed.⁶ Since the wages of sin is death, they will die.⁷ They will be appropriately punished according to the decree of a God who is both loving and just, and then they will be no more.⁸ They have been granted one life to live. That one life is a gift of grace from God. Nobody deserves to live forever. God is under no obligation to give unbelievers an eternal life, either to suffer, or to repent. He is sovereign, and if he has decided that the wages of sin is death, no theologian has the right to convert the sentence.

Bell wrote a book about a victory. He envisions an eternity in which all sin is forgiven, all wrongs are righted, and love wins. He is absolutely right. Love will win because God will win. God will win because he is God, not because he is love. His love and justice work together to produce a heaven and earth without evil. Our participation in that victory is not a given. Some will not make it. That is what it ultimately means to be lost. In the end, God wins. Reader, where do you stand before God? Don’t take his patience for granted.

Rob Bell, LOVE WINS: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. (Robert H. Bell, Jr. Trust, 2011). [↩]
1 Corinthians 11:19. [↩]
Romans 1:23; 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:16. [↩]
Romans 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; 1 Timothy 1:10. [↩]
Matthew 25:46; John 3:15-16, 36; 4:14; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68, 10:28; 12:25; Acts 13:46, 48; Romans 2:7; 5:21; 6:22; 1 Timothy 6:12; 1 John 5:11; Jude 1:21. [↩]
Matt. 10:28; 22:7; Luke 17: 27, 29; 20:16; 1 Cor. 3:17; 6:13; 15:24, 26; Heb. 10:39; 2 Peter 2:12; Rev. 11:18. [↩]
Matt. 21:41; John 5:24; 8:51; Romans 6:16, 23; 1 Cor. 15:26, 54; James 5:20; 1 John 3:14; Rev. 21:8. [↩]
Psalm 104:35; Ezekiel 26:21; 27:36; 28:19. [↩]

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Around the web March – Hell is Really Hot!

March 6, 2011 By admin Leave a Comment

The subject of hell has hit the headlines this week because of the coming release of
Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived by Rob Bell
Here is his promotional video:

[ youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivwfqBNICf4]

In Christianity Today www.christianitytoday.com/ct/article_print.html?id=91120

New York Times www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05bell.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Rob%20Bell&st=cse . I quote:

“Much of the book is a sometimes obscure discussion of the meaning of heaven and hell that tears away at the standard ideas. In his version, heaven is something that begins here on earth, in a life of goodness, and hell seems more a condition than an eternal fate — “the very real consequences we experience when we reject all the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us.”

While sliding close to what critics consider the heresy of “universalism” — that all humans will eventually be saved — he never uses the term”

I’m not sure if Rob is going to come down on the side of annihiliationism or universalism or any particular “side”. I’ll have to read the book. Someone who has wrote: www.gregboyd.org/blog/rob-bell-is-not-a-universalist-and-i-actually-read-love-wins/

“..given Rob’s poetic/artistic/non-dogmatic style, Love Wins cannot be easily filed into pre-established theological categories (viz. “universalism” vs “eternal conscious suffering” vs. “annihilationism,” etc.). I am certain some readers — especially those who position themselves as the final arbiters and guardians of evangelical truth — will try to do this (obviously, they already have!). And, having read Rob’s book, I can almost guarantee you that they will find isolated quotes to justify their labels. As I interpret Rob’s work, however, it would be misguided and unfair to apply any of these labels to him..”

I think it is great that the topic is being brought into the open and people are discussing hell again. It’s time really thought about what they believe on this topic, whether it fits with what the Bible says and whether it fits with the God they know.

Rob Bell will be speaking live http://lovewins.eventbrite.com/ Monday, March 14, 2011 from 7:00 PM – 8:00 PM (ET) You can also participate live online. Use your Facebook account to join this provocative conversation by going to www.livestream.com/lovewins and login using Facebook Connect. {If I have my calculations correct that is 1pm Sunday March 13th?-ed}

Thank you to Edward Fudge for letting us know about the flurry of activity in the blogosphere and the media. Please see many resources on subject at his website

http://www.EdwardFudge.com/written/fire.html

as well as our own:

http://www.afterlife.co.nz/?s=annihilation

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